Swinging for fences...

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10-14-2005, 11:37 AM
Fnord

Swinging for fences...

UTG+1 has yet to raise pre-flop in 2 orbits

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($49)
UTG+1 ($48.95)
MP1 ($142.90)
MP2 ($66.20)
CO ($22.10)
Button ($65.70)
Fnord ($57.50)
BB ($16)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with T:heart:, T:diamond:.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) T:spade:, 5:heart:, Q:diamond: (6 players)
Fnord bets $2, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Turn: ($7) A:spade: (2 players)
Fnord bets $4, UTG+1 raises to $8, Fnord raises to $16, UTG+1 calls $8.

River: ($39) 4:diamond: (2 players)
Fnord bets $39 (All-In)

Table is weak/tight/passive with a couple soft spots (BB is one)
BB is a big fat loose/passive fish.
No read on CO yet

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($37.20)
UTG+1 ($47.15)
MP1 ($37.90)
MP2 ($132.90)
CO ($52.40)
Button ($16)
Fnord ($102.20)
BB ($32.65)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 6:heart:, 7:heart:.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) 8:heart:, J:club:, 5:diamond: (5 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets $1.5, UTG folds, MP1 folds, CO calls $1.50, Fnord calls $1.50.

Turn: ($7) 4:diamond: (3 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets $3, CO raises to $6, Fnord raises to $100.2 (all-in)
10-14-2005, 11:59 AM
arkana

First hand is ok I think, as long as he calls you with two pair on the river and not just with KJ.

Don't push the second hand, you might as well turn your cards face up (and you know what the fundamental theorem is). If you are going to raise make it $15-$20, else just call and either lead the river with a PSB or if you are feeling tricky check raise him there (but you have to be very sure he is going to bet).
10-14-2005, 12:01 PM
DaNutsInYoEye

Can't win what you don't put in the middle.

I like these pushes at $100NL and below because people will often assume the overbet is a bluff and call with 2 pair or even TPTK or a draw. "WTF?!? Oh, he has to be bluffing. Bastard won't push me of a pair of aces. I call... ... ... Doh!"
10-14-2005, 01:38 PM
KoRnholio

I find that swinging for the fences like that only really works well if the guy raised preflop and holds an AA/KK that he won't let go of. That second hand the BB probably just has Jx, and the CO might have a better J. Even I would consider folding a low set in the CO's spot because that bet is just so big compared to the pot.
10-14-2005, 01:46 PM
STIdrivr

i dont know about the hardcore all in on the second hand
10-14-2005, 01:49 PM
Jimmy Mac

wtf does "swinging for fences" mean?
10-14-2005, 01:56 PM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

wtf does "swinging for fences" mean?

"Going all the way"
"Scoring a touchdown"
"Hitting a homerun"
"'rilla is gay"
"Going Nuclear"
"Going for the Gold"

or

"Making a huge overbet when you have the nuts"
10-14-2005, 02:05 PM
UG

Hand #1) I would probably reraise more on the turn. Pump it to $20 or $22. If he calls you then I say check the river. Throw him some rope so he can hang himself. When he bets to get paid off slam him with an all-in bet. Either way, you played it fine, leading out with an all-in bet is very good here too. This all goes to shit if this guy has KJ, but that's the chance you take.

Hand #2) I don't necessarily love your play here, but I still think it's okay. I think it's two pair vs. set vs. straight, and you're going to whip some ass in that fight most of the time. On the turn I'm not pushing my chips in there. I make it at least $18 or $20 to go to find out who's serious about this hand. If you get a call and/or someone pushes on you here you are loving life.
10-14-2005, 03:14 PM
Greedo017

i don't like the swinging for the fences idea. I tried it for a while, and I find that no matter who is at the table, unless you have one complete idiot you've identified, you're going to get folds too much.

Hand 1, This is a really tough spot out of position. I guess if you're gonna go for the gold this is good, but you're leaving yourself really vulnerable to getting called by a better hand. I think slowing down on the turn might be a good idea here.

Hand 2, no way. keep it reasonable, you're going to end up destacking someone 1 in 50 times vs. taking 1/4-1/2 their stack 1 in 2 times.
10-14-2005, 03:16 PM
dsaxton

Hand one, you raise all-in with a set with the distinct possibility you're betting into the nut straight. Why?

Hand two, your cards are pretty obvious. Is there any reason to think you're going to get paid off making this huge overbet?
10-14-2005, 04:09 PM
UG

I don't see the opp limping in with KJ playing UTG+1, but I guess it's possible. I'd be willing to bet this guy has AQ, limped it, and now he's going to get 'effed where it hurts.
10-14-2005, 04:13 PM
pokerfanatic

that is one hell of an over bet that i don't think they can call unless they have top set and even then i might consder laying that down aganst an unlonwn... though i don't play nl...
10-14-2005, 04:28 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Hand one, you raise all-in with a set with the distinct possibility you're betting into the nut straight. Why?

You're onto something here.

What range of hands do you assign him? Weights? What hands is he calling the river with?
10-14-2005, 04:33 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Hand #2) I don't necessarily love your play here, but I still think it's okay. I think it's two pair vs. set vs. straight, and you're going to whip some ass in that fight most of the time. On the turn I'm not pushing my chips in there. I make it at least $18 or $20 to go to find out who's serious about this hand. If you get a call and/or someone pushes on you here you are loving life.

What does making it $20 get me that making it $50 doesn't? What % of the time does a set laydown here? 2 pair? Is $50 or all-in more likely to get a call here?

132 games 0.005 secs 26,400 games/sec

Board: 8h Jc 5d 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 77.2727 % 77.27% 00.00% { 7h6h }
Hand 2: 22.7273 % 22.73% 00.00% { 88 }
10-14-2005, 04:57 PM
arkana

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

What does making it $20 get me that making it $50 doesn't? What % of the time does a set laydown here? 2 pair? Is $50 or all-in more likely to get a call here?

A lot more, you will stack a set regardless but you are giving other hands a chance to get away from the hand.
10-14-2005, 05:06 PM
LeFou

mmm... these are exactly the kinds of hands (and stakes) I'm into nowadays...

1: I don't think you can give him KJ; the odds weren't there on the flop and with the spades out he likely would've gone in on the turn. I like.
2: I'm not even completing SB with those unless MP2 and his fat stack were part of the potential profits. That said, the overbet has to look sloppy and reckless like this to work.
10-14-2005, 05:10 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

2: I'm not even completing SB with those unless MP2 and his fat stack were part of the potential profits.

How often do you think I win a small pot here post-flop? Pardon my adding that you called UTG 6x from the BB with QJs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

That said, the overbet has to look sloppy and reckless like this to work.

Give me a better line. $20 flat has been suggested, but my on-the-spot math had pushing comming out ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Hand two, your cards are pretty obvious. Is there any reason to think you're going to get paid off making this huge overbet?

What % of the time do you think I get a call here?
10-14-2005, 05:29 PM
LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

2: I'm not even completing SB with those unless MP2 and his fat stack were part of the potential profits.

How often do you think I win a small pot here post-flop? Pardon my adding that you called UTG 6x from the BB with QJs...

I'm sure you can play these. It's just that I -- personally -- am off the LSCs completely as they've broken my heart too many times. QJ has nice top pair and nut str8 possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

That said, the overbet has to look sloppy and reckless like this to work.

Give me a better line. $20 flat has been suggested, but my on-the-spot math had pushing comming out ahead.

I think you misunderstood. The $100 DID look reckless. The laziest thing a guy can do is move the little slider all the way to the right. I think it's perfect.
10-14-2005, 05:32 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

I'm sure you can play these. It's just that I -- personally -- am off the LSCs completely as they've broken my heart too many times. QJ has nice top pair and nut str8 possibilities.

Great little hands when no one is showing down much of anything. I was raising more often pre-flop that I will in a limit game. I think I need to gear it down a bit....
10-14-2005, 06:16 PM
arkana

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

I think you misunderstood. The $100 DID look reckless. The laziest thing a guy can do is move the little slider all the way to the right. I think it's perfect.

decent players dont fall for this bs anymore
10-14-2005, 08:05 PM
lolzzz_321

I like all hands, reminds me of my play alot.

edit:hand 1 looks alot like JK... OR two pair.
10-14-2005, 08:10 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

edit:hand 1 looks alot like JK... OR two pair.

I ran a rational range of hands and I was about a 53% favorite on the river (I was hoping to provoke dsaxton into providing a number, but I guess he just doesn't think at that level and sees a big KJ hiding under the bed with his Barbie dolls.) Throw in the donk factor and it's all value. However, it clearly illustrates how going $1 less on the flop made it little harder to get it all-in on the turn when my hand was stronger, next time I'm potting it. Seeing stupid shit at showdown in limit games and learning to value bet helps me find that push I think. If I have a great hand, you'll call with lots worse hands and you show me a better hand then good for you sir...
10-15-2005, 02:30 AM
renegaderob1

I'm not sure what the play is like on stars, but at this level on party/multi I wouldn't be suprised to see the opp limp KJ utg+1.. a $2 bet into a $3 pot (flop) would not be large enough to put off chasers either at this level (I see it quite often). When the A falls, he looks a bit more interested in the pot, would you have called if he pushed your reraise?

What was the outcome of that hand?
10-15-2005, 03:04 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by renegaderob1

$2 bet into a $3 pot (flop) would not be large enough to put off chasers either at this level (I see it quite often).

Folding KJ on the flop for $2 would be horrible. Worse than raising 72o horrible.
10-15-2005, 03:27 AM
renegaderob1

My bad. Misread the HH and thought he had inside straight draw not OESD...

so if the call is ok, why would you be so unfased by the possibility he has KJ?
10-15-2005, 03:41 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by renegaderob1

so if the call is ok, why would you be so unfased by the possibility he has KJ?

Because I expect to see a worse hand at showdown more often.