Overplayed flush?

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11-15-2005, 05:10 PM
TalentedTom

Overplayed flush?

Would anyone have played the turn differtly?

PokerStars Game #3066981221: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 17:01:04 (ET)
Table 'Shura' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Fookaus ($96.55 in chips)
Seat 2: jageren ($100.75 in chips)
Seat 3: TalentedTom ($97.55 in chips)
Seat 4: Blue Knight1 ($111.25 in chips)
Seat 5: probab ($68.30 in chips)
Seat 6: garyfmarsh ($195.90 in chips)
Seat 7: rasools#1fan ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 8: AceAge ($123.90 in chips)
Seat 9: RISKAVERSE ($34.55 in chips)
AceAge: posts small blind $0.50
RISKAVERSE: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [5h 8h]
Fookaus: folds
jageren: calls $1
TalentedTom: calls $1
Blue Knight1: raises $2 to $3
probab: folds
garyfmarsh: folds
rasools#1fan: folds
AceAge: folds
RISKAVERSE: folds
jageren: calls $2
TalentedTom: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [8s 6h 4h]
jageren: bets $4
TalentedTom: raises $10 to $14
Blue Knight1: calls $14
jageren: calls $10
*** TURN *** [8s 6h 4h] [2h]
jageren: checks
TalentedTom: bets $50
Blue Knight1: folds
jageren: folds
TalentedTom collected $49.90 from pot
TalentedTom: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $52.50 | Rake $2.60
Board [8s 6h 4h 2h]
Seat 1: Fookaus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: jageren folded on the Turn
Seat 3: TalentedTom collected ($49.90)
Seat 4: Blue Knight1 folded on the Turn
Seat 5: probab folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: garyfmarsh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: rasools#1fan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: AceAge (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: RISKAVERSE (big blind) folded before Flop
11-15-2005, 05:11 PM
Fnord

Ni Han.

With 3 to the turn, big pot and a baby flush, sounds like good reasons to bet it hard.

Glad to see you back in the hundie game.
11-15-2005, 06:29 PM
lamaros

Pretty much a no brainer.
11-15-2005, 06:43 PM
EricE

With three other opps it seems like a good place to hit it hard. But in this pot I think it’s a good place to slow play. It’s a raised pot so it’s likely people are calling with overcards. The flop is all rags so unless someone hit two pair with S-Gapper then nobody has anything to pay you with. I would ½ pot it and hope for a broadway card on the river.

Consider the alternative which I pulled last night. Same situation, I hit a flush on the turn with my SC, I overbet the pot, it was called by button. I push the next street and he shows his A high flush. To me this seems like a bet only callable by a higher flush because the board is all rags.
11-15-2005, 06:51 PM
TalentedTom

OOPS

PokerStars Game #3067863381: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:44:00 (ET)
Table 'Libussa' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 2mongoose ($237.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Kuhnster ($273.30 in chips)
Seat 3: TalentedTom ($125 in chips)
Seat 4: Wivil ($54.05 in chips)
Seat 5: Hannibal86 ($35.40 in chips)
Seat 6: garyfmarsh ($178.65 in chips)
Seat 7: billzfan86 ($85 in chips)
Seat 8: rico1980 ($74.45 in chips)
Seat 9: theNUTRIA ($369.70 in chips)
Hannibal86: posts small blind $0.50
garyfmarsh: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [8h 6h]
billzfan86: folds
rico1980: calls $1
theNUTRIA: calls $1
2mongoose: folds
Kuhnster said, "my girl will be here at 7"
Kuhnster said, "so...i'll need to go then"
billzfan86 said, "so lets go u got 15 mins"
Kuhnster: folds
Kuhnster leaves the table
TalentedTom: raises $5 to $6
Wivil: folds
Hannibal86: folds
garyfmarsh: folds
rico1980: folds
theNUTRIA: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5h As 7h]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $9
theNUTRIA: calls $9
*** TURN *** [5h As 7h] [9c]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $24
theNUTRIA: calls $24
*** RIVER *** [5h As 7h 9c] [2d]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $86 and is all-in
theNUTRIA said, "wow, u have set?"
TalentedTom said, "nop"
TalentedTom said, "if i do"
TalentedTom said, "report me to pokerstars"
TalentedTom said, "i dont"
theNUTRIA: calls $86
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [8h 6h] (a straight, Five to Nine)
A is A joins the table at seat #2
theNUTRIA: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $249.50 from pot
TalentedTom said, ":)"
theNUTRIA said, "very nice hand"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $252.50 | Rake $3
Board [5h As 7h 9c 2d]
Seat 1: 2mongoose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Kuhnster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: TalentedTom showed [8h 6h] and won ($249.50) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 4: Wivil (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Hannibal86 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: garyfmarsh (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: billzfan86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: rico1980 folded before Flop
Seat 9: theNUTRIA mucked [Ac Qh]
11-15-2005, 06:55 PM
EricE

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

OOPS

PokerStars Game #3067863381: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:44:00 (ET)
Table 'Libussa' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 2mongoose ($237.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Kuhnster ($273.30 in chips)
Seat 3: TalentedTom ($125 in chips)
Seat 4: Wivil ($54.05 in chips)
Seat 5: Hannibal86 ($35.40 in chips)
Seat 6: garyfmarsh ($178.65 in chips)
Seat 7: billzfan86 ($85 in chips)
Seat 8: rico1980 ($74.45 in chips)
Seat 9: theNUTRIA ($369.70 in chips)
Hannibal86: posts small blind $0.50
garyfmarsh: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [8h 6h]
billzfan86: folds
rico1980: calls $1
theNUTRIA: calls $1
2mongoose: folds
Kuhnster said, "my girl will be here at 7"
Kuhnster said, "so...i'll need to go then"
billzfan86 said, "so lets go u got 15 mins"
Kuhnster: folds
Kuhnster leaves the table
TalentedTom: raises $5 to $6
Wivil: folds
Hannibal86: folds
garyfmarsh: folds
rico1980: folds
theNUTRIA: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5h As 7h]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $9
theNUTRIA: calls $9
*** TURN *** [5h As 7h] [9c]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $24
theNUTRIA: calls $24
*** RIVER *** [5h As 7h 9c] [2d]
theNUTRIA: checks
TalentedTom: bets $86 and is all-in
theNUTRIA said, "wow, u have set?"
TalentedTom said, "nop"
TalentedTom said, "if i do"
TalentedTom said, "report me to pokerstars"
TalentedTom said, "i dont"
theNUTRIA: calls $86
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [8h 6h] (a straight, Five to Nine)
A is A joins the table at seat #2
theNUTRIA: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $249.50 from pot
TalentedTom said, ":)"
theNUTRIA said, "very nice hand"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $252.50 | Rake $3
Board [5h As 7h 9c 2d]
Seat 1: 2mongoose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Kuhnster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: TalentedTom showed [8h 6h] and won ($249.50) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 4: Wivil (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Hannibal86 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: garyfmarsh (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: billzfan86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: rico1980 folded before Flop
Seat 9: theNUTRIA mucked [Ac Qh]

Exactly, look what he had...a big fat juicy Q kicker paired A. I think that makes the difference.

He is thinking…hmmm he thinks his AT,AJ is good here…well, I’ll show him, call.
11-15-2005, 07:07 PM
Fnord

The thing with the flush hand is that he has a very legit concern of a big heart making a bigger flush on the river. It's already a big pot, so we need to protect it. So we're already talking about something like half-pot. I don't have a problem swinging for fences here giving 2 players a chance to make a really terrible call.
11-15-2005, 07:07 PM
TalentedTom

Im a very lag player. It seems like half the table will go all in with top pair against me they show absolutley no respect. But when they start outflopping my monsters things get very nasty, very fast.
11-15-2005, 07:09 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

Im a very lag player.

Ahahahahahaha
11-15-2005, 07:19 PM
TalentedTom

PokerStars Game #3067684354: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:24:06 (ET)
Table 'Florya' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: markovitz ($43.60 in chips)
Seat 3: TalentedTom ($108.65 in chips)
Seat 4: MosDef10 ($186 in chips)
Seat 5: vjagv ($37 in chips)
Seat 6: Monte car ($66.60 in chips)
Seat 7: SevenDueced ($26.30 in chips)
Seat 8: MILLBODD ($239.35 in chips)
Seat 9: PHI DELT 874 ($51.05 in chips)
markovitz: posts small blind $0.50
TalentedTom: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [7s 2s]
markovitz said, "qk"
MosDef10: calls $1
vjagv: calls $1
Monte car: raises $1 to $2
SevenDueced: calls $2
MILLBODD: folds
PHI DELT 874: folds
markovitz: calls $1.50
TalentedTom: calls $1
MosDef10: calls $1
vjagv: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [8s 4s 2c]
markovitz: checks
TalentedTom: bets $7
MosDef10: folds
vjagv: folds
Monte car: folds
SevenDueced: raises $13 to $20
markovitz: folds
TalentedTom: raises $13 to $33
SevenDueced: calls $4.30 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [8s 4s 2c] [3s]
TalentedTom said, "72"
TalentedTom said, "72"
*** RIVER *** [8s 4s 2c 3s] [Th]
TalentedTom said, "72"
TalentedTom said, "72"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [7s 2s] (a flush, Eight high)
SevenDueced: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $57.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $60.60 | Rake $3
Board [8s 4s 2c 3s Th]
Seat 2: markovitz (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: TalentedTom (big blind) showed [7s 2s] and won ($57.60) with a flush, Eight high
Seat 4: MosDef10 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: vjagv folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Monte car folded on the Flop
Seat 7: SevenDueced mucked [Ah Ac]
Seat 8: MILLBODD folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: PHI DELT 874 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #3067788514: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:35:44 (ET)
Table 'Salyut' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: BeBop ($119.20 in chips)
Seat 2: DaymonJ11 ($98.75 in chips)
Seat 3: VinceC ($127.80 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($92.35 in chips)
Seat 5: dk26cmk ($48.50 in chips)
Seat 6: shrader ($18.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Hovanky ($39 in chips)
Seat 8: nirvous ($38.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Apex-X ($137.25 in chips)
DaymonJ11: posts small blind $0.50
VinceC: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [5d 5s]
TalentedTom: raises $5 to $6
dk26cmk: folds
shrader: folds
Hovanky: folds
nirvous: folds
Apex-X: folds
BeBop: calls $6
DaymonJ11: folds
VinceC: folds
*** FLOP *** [7s 4d 8c]
TalentedTom: bets $8
BeBop: calls $8
*** TURN *** [7s 4d 8c] [Ah]
TalentedTom: bets $10
BeBop: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [7s 4d 8c Ah] [9h]
TalentedTom: checks
BeBop: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [5d 5s] (a pair of Fives)
BeBop: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $47.10 from pot
nirvous said, "had a8"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $49.50 | Rake $2.40
Board [7s 4d 8c Ah 9h]
Seat 1: BeBop (button) mucked [6c 4c]
Seat 2: DaymonJ11 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: VinceC (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: TalentedTom showed [5d 5s] and won ($47.10) with a pair of Fives
Seat 5: dk26cmk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shrader folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Hovanky folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: nirvous folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Apex-X folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #3067836964: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:41:06 (ET)
Table 'Salyut' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: BeBop ($71.05 in chips)
Seat 2: DaymonJ11 ($98.25 in chips)
Seat 3: VinceC ($130.85 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($132.05 in chips)
Seat 5: dk26cmk ($47 in chips)
Seat 6: shrader ($20 in chips)
Seat 7: Hovanky ($34.50 in chips)
Seat 8: nirvous ($61.30 in chips)
Seat 9: Apex-X ($137.25 in chips)
nirvous: posts small blind $0.50
Apex-X: posts big blind $1
shrader: posts small & big blinds $1.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [4h 5h]
BeBop: calls $1
DaymonJ11: folds
VinceC: folds
TalentedTom: raises $5 to $6
dk26cmk: calls $6
shrader: folds
Hovanky: folds
nirvous: folds
Apex-X: folds
BeBop: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [7s 6s 8d]
BeBop: checks
TalentedTom: bets $14
dk26cmk: folds
BeBop: calls $14
*** TURN *** [7s 6s 8d] [5d]
BeBop: checks
TalentedTom: bets $52
BeBop: folds
TalentedTom collected $46.65 from pot
TalentedTom: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $49 | Rake $2.35
Board [7s 6s 8d 5d]
Seat 1: BeBop folded on the Turn
Seat 2: DaymonJ11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: VinceC folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TalentedTom collected ($46.65)
Seat 5: dk26cmk folded on the Flop
Seat 6: shrader folded before Flop
Seat 7: Hovanky (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: nirvous (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Apex-X (big blind) folded before Flop

This guy went on tilt afterwards
PokerStars Game #3067602530: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:15:00 (ET)
Table 'Athamantis' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: iggs ($97.35 in chips)
Seat 2: garyfmarsh ($132.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Greek35 ($49.95 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($175.50 in chips)
Seat 5: CubbieGNRFan ($136.85 in chips)
Seat 6: nexteltaggin ($48.60 in chips)
Seat 7: Hovanky ($43.20 in chips)
Seat 8: Jmagg ($74.95 in chips)
Seat 9: tuy3n ($123.55 in chips)
garyfmarsh: posts small blind $0.50
Greek35: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [7s 7d]
TalentedTom: raises $4 to $5
CubbieGNRFan: folds
nexteltaggin: folds
Hovanky: folds
Jmagg: folds
tuy3n: folds
iggs: folds
garyfmarsh: calls $4.50
Greek35: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d 2h 3s]
garyfmarsh: checks
TalentedTom: bets $7
garyfmarsh: calls $7
*** TURN *** [2d 2h 3s] [4h]
garyfmarsh: checks
TalentedTom: checks
*** RIVER *** [2d 2h 3s 4h] [8c]
garyfmarsh: bets $5
TalentedTom: calls $5
*** SHOW DOWN ***
garyfmarsh: shows [Qh As] (a pair of Deuces)
TalentedTom: shows [7s 7d] (two pair, Sevens and Deuces)
TalentedTom collected $33.35 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $35 | Rake $1.65
Board [2d 2h 3s 4h 8c]
Seat 1: iggs (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: garyfmarsh (small blind) showed [Qh As] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 3: Greek35 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: TalentedTom showed [7s 7d] and won ($33.35) with two pair, Sevens and Deuces
Seat 5: CubbieGNRFan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: nexteltaggin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Hovanky folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Jmagg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: tuy3n folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #3067879887: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/15 - 18:45:50 (ET)
Table 'Athamantis' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: iggs ($99 in chips)
Seat 2: garyfmarsh ($119.40 in chips)
Seat 3: shrader ($19 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($171.75 in chips)
Seat 5: silv44 ($53.55 in chips)
Seat 6: nexteltaggin ($26.45 in chips)
Seat 7: mavsfan4 ($39 in chips)
Seat 8: Jmagg ($88.10 in chips)
Seat 9: Slush Puppie ($65.40 in chips)
iggs: posts small blind $0.50
garyfmarsh: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [Th As]
shrader: folds
TalentedTom: raises $5 to $6
silv44: folds
nexteltaggin: folds
mavsfan4: folds
Jmagg: folds
Slush Puppie: folds
iggs: calls $5.50
garyfmarsh: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ad 6d]
iggs: checks
garyfmarsh: checks
TalentedTom: bets $10
iggs: folds
garyfmarsh: calls $10
*** TURN *** [Ac Ad 6d] [Jc]
garyfmarsh: checks
TalentedTom: bets $15
garyfmarsh: calls $15
*** RIVER *** [Ac Ad 6d Jc] [8d]
garyfmarsh: checks
TalentedTom: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
garyfmarsh: shows [2h 2c] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
TalentedTom: shows [Th As] (three of a kind, Aces)
TalentedTom collected $65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $68 | Rake $3
Board [Ac Ad 6d Jc 8d]
Seat 1: iggs (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: garyfmarsh (big blind) showed [2h 2c] and lost with two pair, Aces and Deuces
Seat 3: shrader folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TalentedTom showed [Th As] and won ($65) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 5: silv44 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: nexteltaggin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: mavsfan4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Jmagg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Slush Puppie (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
11-15-2005, 07:26 PM
EricE

These hands are ALL about your image. Nice hands.
11-15-2005, 07:28 PM
lamaros

How are any of those LAG?
11-15-2005, 07:39 PM
Fnord

I have your numbers over a pretty large sample size and have you pretty pegged. Yeah, you'll make moves and mix it up a bit. That makes you a kinda tricky sTAgg as opposed to the large number of uninspired tight and very predictable players in that game.

I'll shut up now...
11-15-2005, 07:46 PM
TalentedTom

I only play ~25-35% of the hands depening on the table. I used to have it as high as 40% but i plugged in a few leaks and got rid of some super -EV stuff.

Mr.Fnord, we must have a different view on what LAG is. I am under the impression a tight is someone with hand range of 15-22% and LAG is anyone with over 25% ( each hand is played with an opening raise no flat calls ever) Am I incorrect?
11-15-2005, 08:04 PM
Fnord

I was playing the NL$100 (.5/1 blinds) on Bodog a couple nights ago.

First orbit...

Tweedle-stupid (has $200) makes it $12 from MPish
Tweedle-dumb (has $900) makes it $22 from the button.
I fold 77 from the SB.

Flop comes 7 high.

Tweedle-stupid bets $12, tweedle-dumb pushes, tweedle-stupid folds, tweedle-dumb shows 23o.

...and it kept getting better as Tweedle-stupid peaked at $330. Too bad my Queens didn't hold...
11-15-2005, 08:45 PM
Fnord

1k hands
28% VP$IP
8% PFR
70% c-bet after PFR
I got you 4/6 showing down winners after a flop raise
Undefeated after raising the turn/river
85% fold to steal
11-15-2005, 09:37 PM
Muxy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

1k hands
28% VP$IP
8% PFR
70% c-bet after PFR
I got you 4/6 showing down winners after a flop raise
Undefeated after raising the turn/river
85% fold to steal

too small of a sample size

pwned
11-15-2005, 09:46 PM
TalentedTom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

1k hands
28% VP$IP
8% PFR
70% c-bet after PFR
I got you 4/6 showing down winners after a flop raise
Undefeated after raising the turn/river
85% fold to steal

How did you ge this sample? hmm
11-15-2005, 10:53 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muxy

too small of a sample size

pwned

Beats the zero sample size most of you are making decions for your stack with. To put it in perspective, that's over 100 orbits...

WTFPwnd!
11-16-2005, 09:51 AM
r8ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The thing with the flush hand is that he has a very legit concern of a big heart making a bigger flush on the river. It's already a big pot, so we need to protect it. So we're already talking about something like half-pot. I don't have a problem swinging for fences here giving 2 players a chance to make a really terrible call.

I totally agree here. You don't want another suited on the river. Take the current pot, especially since you are recovering from a downswing. You don't want to lose this hand and tilt into another downswing.