What is the correct play?

Texas Hold'em $0.50-$0.50 NL (real money), #1,638,641,972
Table Damman, 27 Dec 2005 5:35 PM ET

Seat 5: Symbolic0 ($67.10 in chips)
Seat 9: ZIA75 ($44 in chips)

Dealt to Symbolico (6h, 8h)

ANTES/BLINDS
calfirst33 posts blind ($0.25), Symbolic0 posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
KC xx folds, Scotty_12 folds, lucky kidd calls $0.50, ZIA75 bets $2, maindefer folds, Spike_Guy folds, calfirst33 folds, Symbolic0 calls $1.50, lucky kidd folds.

FLOP [board cards 4H,8S,JS ]
Symbolic0 checks, ZIA75 bets $4, Symbolic0 calls $4.

TURN [board cards 4H,8S,JS,5H ] (Pot is $12)
Symbolic0 checks, ZIA75 bets $10, (now what, and why?)

Zia has about $26 left after turn bet.

Without a read, I fold pre-flop.

As played I like any turn play other than folding and don't think it matters much.

Hmm, I didn't really have a read on him. Maybe im overvaluing suited connectors too much out of position. Either way, i called, hit the 2h, and went all in and got called.

I was really starting to wonder if i was overplaying draws on later streets, good to hear it confirmed that I was correct in calling.

Did he show you a big pair?

AA, i felt he had AJ , QQ,KK, or AA after his strong turn bet, and felt I could get all his money in if i hit.

Out of position and without a read you're really at a loss for what to do on every street.

For what it's worth, I've folded AK pre-flop in this spot...

Very true, thanks for the advice.

raise the flop!
find out where u are if you want to play here!
once he come over/calls you can safely figure your beat

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

once he come over/calls you can safely figure your beat

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Here is where we disagree.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

once he come over/calls you can safely figure your beat

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Here is where we disagree.

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calling or pushing?

The quality of information we get via a raise/fold line on the flop against an unknown PFR vs the risk of being blown off our equity or getting called and acting first on the turn.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

The quality of information we get via a raise/fold line on the flop against an unknown PFR vs the risk of being blown off our equity or getting called and acting first on the turn.

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hmm
ive actually just figured out how many outs we pick up on the turn here.
I think then its not a fold on the turn, but heck id consider a push
rofl. Ive changed my tune havent i?

Fold preflop like everyone said. In order to play suited connectors properly you need to have position and/or lots of other people in the pot. You have neither, so folding is the obvious choice. This might change if villian was a notorious blind stealer, but even then I wouldn't be too crazy about playing 68s OOP against him. Playing draws OOP is very tough, so I usually dump a lot of my draws if I don't have position.

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

In order to play suited connectors properly you need to have position and/or lots of other people in the pot.

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A strong read on my opponent would make me more inclined to play.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

A strong read on my opponent would make me more inclined to play.

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This is an important point, and underscores why all of us should be mentioning our reads in *every* hand history we post here (or if there are none, saying so). If you can put your opponent on a narrow hand range, you can play a lot of hands effectively against him if the price is right. Consider that if you saw his cards somehow - say if they were marked - you could call any reasonable raise from him with any two cards, and use the boards he misses to manipulate him into folding, or use the boards that hit you well enough to get his whole stack. Now consider that knowing someone's range of hands, if the range is narrow (e.g. Fnord's "strong read"), is as close as you'll ever get in online play to knowing his specific hole cards. This is a huge, huge thing in short-handed games, and not insignificant in *any* game.

Regarding this here hand, I fold pre-flop; if I don't fold pre-flop, I play the rest the same. You could push or call the turn, it makes little difference (since you're probably a coinflip vs. whatever he has at that point). If you think your fold equity is low or none, may as well call and see if you hit.

I'm also more inclined to play a hand like that against him if he tips or under-bets hands post-flop.

Yeah, playing against passive types is fun. A good friend of mine from my home game has a favorite bet; with blinds at .10/.20, he almost always bets .30 on every street, regardless of pot size or pre-flop raises. I will play *anything* against this man because I know he's always going to give me the right price to suck out on him. And guys like that completely erase their own positional advantage. Even better than his weenie betting is the fact that if I bet into him, he almost always flat calls instead of raising, no matter what he has or if he raised previously.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm also more inclined to play a hand like that against him if he tips or under-bets hands post-flop.

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Good point. I just assumed no reads when I read the original post.