400 NL 10-max Party

Villains are typical TAGs.. what do you think of turn line?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($578.48)
Button ($196.90)
SB ($186.30)
BB ($206.80)
UTG ($392.30)
UTG+1 ($373.60)
Hero ($443.90)
MP2 ($410.40)
MP3 ($425.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K:spade:, A:heart:. SB posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, CO calls $14, Button calls $14, 2 folds.

Flop: ($48) 7:diamond:, 3:club:, 6:spade: (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($48) 7:spade: (3 players)
Hero bets $30...

I think I rep this flop about half the time being OOP against 2 opponents. Could be more or less depending on the opponents. I'm not saying you made a mistake by any means, just trying to give some useful feedback.

Hmm.. turn. I think I like it against most players. Here's the thing though, not many people ever check an overpair on the flop so your check really announces that you have a couple high cards and you don't want to put any more money in the pot OOP against 2 players. The turn certainly didn't help you, but it's highly likely that it didn't help your opponents either, neither of whom seemed to have much interest in the pot after you basically gave up on it on the flop.

Truthfully, this is more a matter of playing the players then it is a matter of playing the cards...

If the turn bet wins you the pot 5 out of 13 times right there, it's +EV. I think against most players this is a good bet...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think I rep this flop about half the time being OOP against 2 opponents. Could be more or less depending on the opponents. I'm not saying you made a mistake by any means, just trying to give some useful feedback.

Hmm.. turn. I think I like it against most players. Here's the thing though, not many people ever check an overpair on the flop so your check really announces that you have a couple high cards and you don't want to put any more money in the pot OOP against 2 players. The turn certainly didn't help you, but it's highly likely that it didn't help your opponents either, neither of whom seemed to have much interest in the pot after you basically gave up on it on the flop.

Truthfully, this is more a matter of playing the players then it is a matter of playing the cards...

If the turn bet wins you the pot 5 out of 13 times right there, it's +EV. I think against most players this is a good bet...

---

I check (and normally raise) overpairs out of position on ragged flops to try to figure out thru my opp's betting whether they have a pair or a set.

Most aware players will call you with a pocket pair, so what is your play if you get called and no A or K on the river? Check\fold?

You say the villains are TAGs and from my experience the hands TAGs like to call preflop raises have a high percentage of pocket pairs. So unless these players know you like to check raise overpairs on the flop they will most likely put you on high cards and you can expect to be called quite often, so unless they call a lot of preflop raises with unpaired cards this will most likely be -EV. Betting the flop is much better IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arkana

Most aware players will call you with a pocket pair, so what is your play if you get called and no A or K on the river? Check\fold?

You say the villains are TAGs and from my experience the hands TAGs like to call preflop raises have a high percentage of pocket pairs. So unless these players know you like to check raise overpairs on the flop they will most likely put you on high cards and you can expect to be called quite often, so unless they call a lot of preflop raises with unpaired cards this will most likely be -EV. Betting the flop is much better IMO.

---

I thought if the villains had pocket pairs they would have bet the flop. I figured them for high cards that I didnt want hitting on the river. I also didnt want to give any the opportunity to steal.

I really don't raising PF with AK, checking the flop and then betting the turn if everyone checks behind. Think about what story is your betting telling the table. The raise PF from your position indicates that you have a pretty good hand. A decent PP or two high card pretty much covers everything you'd be raising with unless your image sucks. Ok, now the flop. Would you be checking the flop if you had an over pair. Not very likely. I'd put you on two overs since you're checking on a ragged flop and two people are yet to act. They check behind you. Now you fire on the turn? What the hell is that? Betting here smells pretty fishy to me if I'm sitting behind you. Do you expect me to believe that the board pairing 7's helped you? Either you have been slow playing or you're full of shit. The only thing you might slow play on this board is a set or a straight. Given your PF raise, I don't think that's very likely. That leaves me to think that you are indeed full of shit. Like arkana said, an aware opponent is going to call you with any PP or a 7, 3 or a 6. A very aware opponent might even raise you regardless of what they had. You need to go beyond what you think they have to third level thinking if your opponents are decent. Sure, they seem to have nothing, but you're telling them you likely have nothing either. What they do have is position though so what they may or may not have is secondary.

As Lukie said, this is more a matter of playing the players than playing your cards. The worse your opponents are the more inclined I'd be to bet. Against good, solid opponents though I think you're making a mistake.

The play doesn't make sense to me. I would call you down with any pair on that board. If You had the 7 or an overpair, you would have bet the flop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surf_Thug

The play doesn't make sense to me. I would call you down with any pair on that board. If You had the 7 or an overpair, you would have bet the flop.

---

again not always.. I think you will lose a lot of money if you take this philosophy. Its not uncommmon for high overpairs to check out of position for pot control reasons (they dont want to pay off a set, while they do want to get paid by top pair hands).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surf_Thug

2 Tables of 100NL 10-Max

Current Bankroll: $625

---

nh

id just reraise you from the later position, youve hardly anything invested and no hand. Take a free card or fold.
Alternative is to bet the flop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spino1i

Its not uncommmon for high overpairs to check out of position for pot control reasons (they dont want to pay off a set, while they do want to get paid by top pair hands).

---

I totally agree with this, and I use this line sometimes. However, I think that unless one or both villians know that you are capable of taking this line, they are inlined to believe you have crap here since the standard play with an overpair is to bet out on this flop. So basically in order for you to pull off this move successfully, you opponents have to be aware and they probably have to have some history of playing with you to know you are capable of playing an overpair this way.