Can't Shake the $10 NL Blues

Guys, I have just gone back to $2 NL for the second time, after again, losing both a couple of stacks and all my confidence.

For the record, I'm pretty much doing well at $2 NL with between 15 and 17 BB/100 hands after almost 18,000 hands.

With $10 NL, it's a different matter. Every time I move up, I lose, lose, lose.

Players seems just as bad, playing all sorts of starting hands, but things like the following happen to me seemingly consistently.

Should I have folded to the big raise? I suppose so. You know, in the $2 game, I limp AK and AQ. I find them exquisitely poor hands against a lot of callers. In fact, middle pair and up seems a better option for raising.

Anyhow, I haven't posted enough of my hand histories, so here's likely the first of many so that I can improve.

Many thanks in advance.

Jigs

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($5.12)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($4.69)
SB ($15.79)
BB ($9.05)
UTG ($10.80)
Hero ($7.85)
UTG+2 ($10.25)
MP1 ($6.65)
MP2 ($31.41)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A:heart:, K:diamond:. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.7, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.70, CO calls $0.70, 3 folds.

Flop: ($2.25) T:spade:, 2:club:, Q:diamond: (3 players)
Hero bets $1.1, MP3 folds, CO raises to $2.8, Hero raises to $4.5, CO calls $1.70.

Turn: ($11.25) 7:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.65, CO calls $2.65.

River: ($16.55) 3:club: (2 players)

Final Pot: $16.55

Think ace high with a gutshot draw is good here?

I think 7x is a bit much preflop. If the table is terribly loose and this is the kind of bet you need to isolate, so be it, but the continuation bet out of position against 2 players should be out of the question then. Of course, what are you doing reraising him when he raises behind you? Just fold to the raise.... I don't understand your thought process at all in this hand to be honest...

7x BB raise with two callers. Than you bet approximately 1/2 the pot on a flop you missed and get reraised. Easy fold. One lesson I've learned is anything more than 4x BB screams AA/KK/AK and you will occasionally get people calling to hit a flop that kills your hand since you've basically told them what you have and they will be looking to take your hold stack for a 7x BB investment.

Thanks guys.

Well, the reason I made the .70 raise, is 'cause I randomise my pre-flop raises. They can be anything from 2X to 10X. Maybe that's not the way forward at 10 buck tables, then?

The dude who called me down had TQ suited. I'd seen him play what I considered weak starting hands before.

Can you elaborate on why the continuation bet is useless here? You'd've just checked?

Youre criticism is very useful. You know, if it was $2 NL, I would've limped in, and folded to the dude's raise on the flop. I don't know why I take bigger risks at $10. Tight passive is the way forward methinks.

Why randomise your pf raises?

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

Well, the reason I made the .70 raise, is 'cause I randomise my pre-flop raises. They can be anything from 2X to 10X. Maybe that's not the way forward at 10 buck tables, then?

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2x to 5x is a more sensible range to randomise. Even having said that, I dont think you need to at 10NL anyway. Just go with a good solid 4x for most hands and pump it up to 5 if you get too many callers. If you still get too many callers after that then just go with counterplay.

After the flop you have no hand against someone with 'something' and what ever that something is, it is ahead of you. Fold.

Back to randomising raises.

The point about randomising raises is if you want to raise different ammounts depending on the strength of your hand (against observent opponents). So instead of saying:

AA-JJ,AK 4xBB
AQ-AT,TT 5xBB
99-77 6xBB

Or whatever you decide, you say:

AA-JJ , AK 70% 4xBB 30% 5xBB
AQ-AT, TT 30% 4xBB 40% 5xBB 30% 6xBB
99-77 40% 5xBB 60% 6xBB


This means that your raise size wont give your hand strength away because you dont always raise 4xBB with AA and it sometimes could be TT aswell.

THIS IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY AT 10NL

Very few people are watching for these sort of patterns. Most of them are happy to just go with "loose" or "tight" for a read.

AK can be a difficult hand to play on loose low limit tables. The reason is you're plaing it wrong. I seriously doubt you're c-bets are going to be respected at this level so the raise, isolate and c-bet style of play is out. What you need to do is raise smaller preflop, something that keeps a few callers in the hand (even 3 or 4 is fine) and builds the pot, while minimising the cost to youself so you can just check/fold when you miss. If you hit play as usuall.

Again, thanks to you all for your feedback.

It's the same thing as the last time I moved up with a weak bankroll.

I changed my style because of the money. I feel that I HAVE to win. I've been dealt AK and AQ loads of times of late, and against Aok's advice, I ALWAYS limp them at the $2 tables. I got the feeling, that "oh, come on, man, you're due to hit something with AK now!" Wrong!

I got burned for another buy-in before this one, with my two pair losing to a set, but that's 6 or 7 buy-ins in a row at the ten buck tables. I cannot shake this monkey from my back!!

Aside from my poor example of how to play, what I'm hearing in your feedback is that I should just continue playing counterplay at this limit as well.

I promised myself not to move up until $225, and what'd I do? Moron!

playing AK like a big pp is a big leak. Consider which hands will call behind you after the preflop raise at 10NL and then reraise the Q high flop.
Then decide if YOU think you took AK too far.
Betting into a calling station is bad. Make a hand push it hard. Dont bluff.

I switched from playing unsuccessful 10NL at stars, and re rolled my self for the 25NL at Party.

It is much better, you actually have fold equity there, and my winrate is stabilizing at 20bb/100.

I dont want fold equity. Let them call me to the river with their 5 kicker :)

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

playing AK like a big pp is a big leak. Consider which hands will call behind you after the preflop raise at 10NL and then reraise the Q high flop.
Then decide if YOU think you took AK too far.
Betting into a calling station is bad. Make a hand push it hard. Dont bluff.

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Sorry, Miffed, I' not quite getting you. Why is it a big leak to limp AK? I mean, especially at a table where people will call or raise with most anything. Besides, I did re-raise the flop, no?

Here's another story that I just had a moment ago. Dealt KK. Raise $.40. FIVE people call. Flop comes A86 all different. Some moron (and he really is, I've got notes on this dude from $2 NL) raises all in. I fold. I would've folded to any raise with the ace showing anyhow, cause, "someone always has an ace."

Anyhow, everyone else folds, as well. Mr. Moron, shows us all his clever bluff of 7T off. My feeling is that passive counterplay is the only way here, too.

Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to be back down to $2, but I just couldn't help myself. I see loads of other morons up there from the $2 tables. It bugs the crap outta me that I can't beat 'em. I'm still juggling the two limits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

playing AK like a big pp is a big leak.

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Sorry, Miffed, I' not quite getting you. Why is it a big leak to limp AK? I mean, especially at a table where people will call or raise with most anything. Besides, I did re-raise the flop, no?

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Miffed didn't mention limping. But I also disagree with not playing AK like a big pocker pair- at least preflop. It's a great hand to add deception to your raising spectrum, it's easy to get away from after the flop, and I find it a good hand to go all in with when my chips are short since I get to go to the river without caring about the flop.

One thing I've noticed from the group that I play regularly with at a pub game is that they believe AK is the end-all be-all and will go all the way with it. Apparently they watch too much televised poker. Tonight alone there were 5 AK hands that played out to the river and AK lost 3 and sucked out twice on the river.

When you are in a pot with more than one caller and miss the flop you are most likely playing catch up from that point foward. Even if you hit one of your cards you might be behind two pair.

Jiggus, you have GOT to stop thinking of the money you have on the table as big bucks that you're losing, and start seeing them as chips. If you can't afford to play poker, then you shouldn't be playing poker.

Every single player loses money while they are learning, whether it's over many months or just a few sessions. I think what you're demonstrating here is that fishy strategies which work at the $2 tables, where you KNOW 6 people will see every flop, are not always going to work at higher limits.

But back to the hand in question. Let's ignore the size PFR for a moment, but we obviously can't ignore the fact that two people with position on you felt their hands were good enough to play against you. This means that they like their hands a lot, and what strong hands will fold on this flop against a less than half-pot-size bet? A cont bet was foolish, but forgiveable; not listening to the information the CO is giving you with his re-raise - I HAVE A MADE HAND - is just foolish, especially when your re-raise he basically HAD to call.

Your turn bet is terrible too. It's so small that it's not going to make anyone fold - maybe in 1% of games you'll be up against a thinking player who also has a gutshot straight, or MAYBE AT, and reads your small bet as a value bet made by a monster hand. But really this just isn't going to happen - you are literally throwing away 26BBs here to someone who has already told you they have a made hand.

This hand is either tilt or quite flabbergastingly bad play. And it's entirely your decisions that are bad - I don't know what your opponent has, but I know you have very little hope of winning the hand - 10 outs at best, several of which may be tainted.

You say you have to win - so why are you throwing relatively huge quantites of money, practically a full buyin, into a pot WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A MADE HAND?

Sorry this is harsh, but after our PM exchange I was looking forward to hearing of your successes, and really, this hand is not worthy of someone with your ambition and your desire to improve. PM me again if you like, or better still get AIM and say hello (my username is markelby).

No worries about the harsh criticism. I think that I posted this up expecting that. It's really good for me, and I'm going to post up some more hands as I find this most educational. Should've started doing it months ago, but no one seems to take $2 histories seriously, perhaps justifiably so.

I'm not arguing with the poorness of the play. Yes, it was a desparate stab at a win with nothing. The 2.6 raise was all I had left, hence it's paltry amount. I had committed myself to the pot from the beginning. Tilt? Yeah, a bit.

I'm able to admit and recognise my own moronicity, and will take all this criticism very seriously.

Now, back to the tables. More histories coming up!

I started at NL10 at Pacific, and there is only one way you can beat the idiots there, you gotta show them hands. Just as in your example, cbets, bluffs, semibluffs, it is all wasted at these level. The only thing that works is playing tight like a virgins...umm...and valuebet the shit out of them, they WILL call. GL buddy!

Jiggus, as a $10 NL player, I don't have a problem with the size of the preflop raise. It really depends on the site. At UB I can raise to 40c in EP and get just 2 callers - fine. At Pacific I can raise to 40c and get 4 callers - raise to $1.00, sometimes get 4 callers - but more likely 2-3. I don't generally raise to $1.00 though - just pot-commits you too much on an undercard flop. 70c to 80c in EP though I think is fine (if your site is as fishy as Pacific).

However, I don't have a huge amount of confidence in AK in early position. I will generally raise to 50c, and check/fold a missed flop (unless I have odds to chase overs or flush draws etc.).

What do I want to see flop when I hold AK from EP?
(1) Top pair A or K on an otherwise non-threatening, non draw flop - I want to just take it down on the flop as much as possible.
(2) Top two pair - I'm hoping for callers now.
(3) Trip aces or kings - hoping for callers but not likely to get them.
(4) 3 flush board when I hold the A - I don't mind betting this out.
(5) All undercards, but nothing higher than 9-T. I will continuation bluff this as if I had a high pocket - but only on the flop unless I am fairly confident that opponent is on a draw and that my A hi is good.

At $10 NL, a half pot continuation bet is almost always an obvious projection that you have missed overs. Hands that want you to stay in (trips/two pair) will often minraise you.
Hands that want to take it down on the flop (draws, some pair on the board or just a pocket pair in hand that knows you missed) will reraise you hard. Often enough you will also be simply smooth called by those same hands.

So, how do you adjust? I generally won't cont. bluff into 2 people, but if I'm going to do it, I will bet my normal overpair amount - 2/3s pot (sometimes pot). If I am called, I will slow down on the turn unimproved - this is weak no doubt - but I'm generally not ahead at this point and the other guy is obviously not folding so how does it help me to put more money in when I have little chance of winning the hand? Again, if I seriously put the opp on a flush draw or somesuch with no pair, then I'm still punching the turn - but it is pretty rare to be able to get this read consistently so I don't make this move very often at all.

How does this work for me? AK is not a big winner for me from early position when I completely miss (at the $10 NL tables 10-max ring at least). That's fine - I realize it, so though I must raise AK in EP, I honestly don't expect much to happen from it and I have no problem letting it go at all.

Now - in your case, what do I see that went wrong with this hand?
(1) 2 people called a big preflop bet in position against you
(2) You missed the flop - but your continuation bluff was weak and easily read as two missed overs (even if you always bet half pot with an overpair in the same situation, most people do not, especially out of position).
(3) You were minraised - now the guy could have a draw (KJ/J9, two pair, trips, etc.) - but you don't really have a hand to beat much on the board and you are out of position - an undesirable situation - this needs a fold or an allin if you think you can really take it down (occassionally opponent just has top pair, mid pair or some pockets and he wants to see if you are on missed overs or really have an overpair - probe minraise - but most of the time you won't get minraised by that, you will be smooth-called because they want to see whether you slow down on the turn or not).
(4) You minraise his minraise on the flop...that's not enough to chase off a draw or a strong hand (2 pair/trips) - and if you are just called, you're stuck. You pretty much have to go allin on the flop or let it go...with the allin hoping for a fold or hoping your outs are good. The reason being - you only had $3 ish left in a much bigger pot than that for betting the turn improved or unimproved anyway. Minraising his minraise pot-committed you (practically) and you were sticking the rest in on the turn regardless of whether you hit or missed - so just get it all in on the flop and pray for a fold or big improvement (personally I wouldn't play it that way - I'd just check/fold the flop because I didn't have high hopes for AK here anyway).

Long post - some repeat content...but since I have played these stakes (started at $10 NL 8 months ago and still primarily play it at 2 sites) hopefully there's some stake-specific experience to be had - and that's not a dog on anyone else's comments as they were all relevent as well - just throwing in my own perspective :)

Best of luck to you at $10 NL!!

Thanks to the latest contributors! It's a great feeling to know that people take the time to advise others so altruistically.

You know, after Biondino's upbraiding, I went back to the tables yesterday with a new yet old mindset. I started playing like I did as a novice disciple of Aokrongly's: uber-tight, folding at the slightest prompting, and then watching the others more carefully, since I had a lot more time on my hands (pun unintended) what with playing only 15% of the hands.

Whilst not exactly winning yet (too early to tell), I have stopped the hemorragic tilt-like play, and I am seeing something interesting: the play at these limits is EXACTLY AS BAD AS AT THE $2 TABLES.

All ins with K7 suited or unsuited, called by A3 unsuited and maybe 66 as well. Due to being so long with the ultra-bottom feeders, I thought that moving up 5 times in stakes meant 5 times better players. Again, WRONG!! They're the same crappy players, and the way I beat $2, should work here, as well. So, I'm back to that mega-snug passive style until I see some results. Boring, I know, but it works, as some of you have already experienced.

Also, guys, please don't take that one example as a general rule of how I play AK. I had a tilted mentality that day. I believe that I've shaken that off, mostly thanks to a few of the more terse comments given above.

I agree with you, DaHorror, about the dubiousness of AK. Lesson reinforced.

Results to follow anon.

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

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I agree with you, DaHorror, about the dubiousness of AK. Lesson reinforced.

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AKo is considered one of the top holdings so I'm not sure I'd say it is dubious. Anyways, I searched my memory and recalled reading this article which might be somewhat instructive to you. http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...805&m_id=65565

OK since you seem to have sorted it out im going to hijack your thread.

Jiggus I know you play at paradise. can you tell me how to set up pokertracker to get their hand histories? You can PM if you want....or ignore me if you really want :)

cheers

Sorry, I still don't understand why you would randomise your PF raises...

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Originally Posted by midas06

Sorry, I still don't understand why you would randomise your PF raises...

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You wouldnt unless you are crazy.
It only works for people who want to make different sizes depending on the strength of their hand.

So a simplified (and silly) example would be you want to always raise 5x with AA and 4x with every other hand. Obviously this would be a tell and people would know exactly when you had AA so instead you decide to randomise your raises so that

70% of the time you have AA you raise 5x
30% of the time you have AA you raise 4x

with the other hands you might raise to:
4x raise 90% of the time
5x raise 10% of the time


So you usually get to raise the amount you want but it doesnt give too much away about your hand strength.

i personally would much rather just pay the amount i think will get the desired number of callers. I feel this randomises my raise size enough already

DaHorror, that's a brilliant post above.

AK *is* a dubious hand because it's so easy to get wed to it with TPTK or just ace-high! Only once you've accepted that it can get you into trouble and you can discard it as easily as any other hand can you start to use it effectively and profitably.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

So you usually get to raise the amount you want but it doesnt give too much away about your hand strength.

i personally would much rather just pay the amount i think will get the desired number of callers. I feel this randomises my raise size enough already

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Why don't you just keep all your pf raises exactly the same. Wouldn't this disguise your hand much much much more effectively?

You are absolutely correct. I was trying to apply a tournament randomising strategy that I got from Aok to 10 buck ring.

Don't ask me why. I moved up in limits, and promptly got stupid. Temporarily.

I had been playing $2 by consistently raising preflop 6X the BB, which disguises my hands just as well. Though, I only raise preflop with 5 hands.

Pelion, I'll PM you about Paradise and PT.

Good thread and thanks Jiggus.

On the preflop randomize - the big thing I've heard from people is that people at this level stake aren't watching what you're doing. You could set exact raises for high pair, mid pair, AK, etc and see pretty much zilch effect from them. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating, but that's the lesson I'm hearing. Agree/Disagree/Full of it?

... particularly if the tables churn players pretty fast so it's not like they're around long enough to learn your patterns anyway.

Jiggus,

I have been playing NL10 at Paradise and I play AK very carefully. I raise 5xBB and if I am going to make a continuation bet I will bet the pot as it is generally more respected by the players. Obviously if someone raises me and I have nothing I will fold and accept the fact I tried to outplay them and didn't. If I get called I then think they have a hand, at least TP and play the turn careully.

I have read on this site that AK is not really a good hand when missing the flop. I never thought this, I thought "AK is a great hand, I am going to defend it"!!! Well it is bascally 2 unpaired cards and is only any good if it hits an A or K and I play it acordingly. Obviously if there is a draw on the board the pot odds have to be considered, but if you hit it your likely going to have the nuts.

I am a fan of the continuation bet as they seem to work on Paradise and the tables I play. I do use Gametime+ along with poker tracker and highly recommend it. It helps to identify the tight players, the maniacs and the fish at that particular table based on all their hands recorded and so it helps with my decision making.

The thing with trying to isolate pre-flop at these tables is it only works to a point. I usually get 3-4 callers on my 5xBB raise. Most of the time they hold anything from 99-AA, QJ-AK suited or not! I have had my AA cracked when raising 5xBB with J8s with a pot sized bet at the flop and turn only for him to catch his flush on the river!!!!! So they will play anything at these tables, raised or not!

I hope this is of some help as I have played the same tables you have. I am by know means knowledgable as I am a beginner. Just my observations of these particular tables.

Hornsta

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

You are absolutely correct. I was trying to apply a tournament randomising strategy that I got from Aok to 10 buck ring.

Don't ask me why. I moved up in limits, and promptly got stupid. Temporarily.

I had been playing $2 by consistently raising preflop 6X the BB, which disguises my hands just as well. Though, I only raise preflop with 5 hands.

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Why the hell would you randomise your MTT PF raises either?

Midas, you make me laugh. I suppose you're right again. Keeping all bets the same is just as deceptive. However, it's probably not as sensible to raise 22 as much as AA all the time.

Hornta9, I'd like any tips you have on using GT+ with Paradise.

I've tried it a couple of times and it's sort of interesting, but it really slows my ancient PC down, and I because I have to request HH's every few minutes and then process 'em in PT, it's all a bit distracting from the game, especially when double or triple tabling.

I'm cuurently double tabling so it works quite OK, but with three tables I think that my system will crash. Do you really feel it makes a big difference?

You have no reason to reraise there. Contiuation bet(if you must) and fold the flop. You donked off your stack and can only blmae yourself.

I like a .5 raise PF in 10NL also.

Jiggus, only play AK past the flop if you hit a king or ace. If anyone is showing you resistance, they are beating you with at least a pair. And if you can't get them to fold their pair on the flop when you have ace high, what makes you think you are going to get them to fold on the turn or river?

Cash games like the ones we are playing are games of pushing edges. The edges I'm talking about are the ones where we are ahead of our opponent to win the pot 60% - 40%, or 90% to 10%. When we think that we are ahead in these persentages to win the pot, we have to bet at the pot and hope that our opponents put more money in.

It's okay to bet at a pot on the flop when you are aggressive preflop. This is called a c-bet (continuation betting). This is a semi-bluff because we are representing a high pocket pair just as we were preflop. A c-bet PAST the flop (on turn or river) is not going to win us any money in the long run.

If you are betting at a pot with AK with an ace on the flop, think about what your opponents are calling with. If you think they are calling with a flush or straight draw, bet at the pot so that it is too expensive for your opponent to call. If you think your opponent is calling with a weak ace, bet at the pot strong enough so that they continue to call all the way to the river. If you are worried about them having a set or two-pair because they raised you, try not to put much more money, if any, into the pot.

The most important thing however, is to consider what your opponents is holding. Try to think about whether or not you would make the same moves they would with a weaker hand than you have. Example: You have top pair with an ace kicker. They are raising and raising you all the way to the river. Hopefully you have folded before then, because middle pairs do not bet like this.

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

Hornta9, I'd like any tips you have on using GT+ with Paradise. it really slows my ancient PC down, and I because I have to request HH's every few minutes and then process 'em in PT,

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Go to the Utilities Menu / Auto Request Hand Histories. Then pokertracker will request the hand history emails and check your inbox automatically. I just set it to grab 40 hands every 10 minutes.

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Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Try to think about whether or not you would have made the same moves with a weaker hand...

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edit: Ok so it isnt horrible, that was slightly harsh. . . You do have to realise that most 10NL players will reraise with a totally different set of hands than you will here IMO though. My original post in full:


Horrible way of thinking about it IMO. The problem is if im AK on a A92 flop and someones calling huge bets I think about my range.
I hold AK, or a set here.
Most 10NL opponents hold any A.

If im reraised the turn my range is AK, AQ, AJ (if i raised preflop) or a set. Most 10NL villains are on a set or 2 pair.

The fact is they reraise when they know they are ahead (or semibluffing) whereas I reraise to find out if im ahead as well as when I know im ahead.

I think you need to think about if you would have made the same moves with a weaker hand, and then consider the type of player youare against, and then consider if they would have made the move with a weaker hand.

In my experience 10NL fish will raise with a monster or with a draw to a monster but rarely with a TPGK type hand that they are buying information for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

Midas, you make me laugh. I suppose you're right again. Keeping all bets the same is just as deceptive. However, it's probably not as sensible to raise 22 as much as AA all the time.

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If you don't want to raise 22, then fold it pf.

Sorry if I'm being harsh here, but most of what you're saying is the opposite of smart and deceptive. Did you make this strategy yourself, or did you read it somewhere?

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Originally Posted by midas06

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

Midas, you make me laugh. I suppose you're right again. Keeping all bets the same is just as deceptive. However, it's probably not as sensible to raise 22 as much as AA all the time.

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If you don't want to raise 22, then fold it pf.

Sorry if I'm being harsh here, but most of what you're saying is the opposite of smart and deceptive. Did you make this strategy yourself, or did you read it somewhere?

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HOH1

That guy seems alright . . . as poker players go.

Edit: Are you seriously suggesting folding 22 preflop in a cash game just because you dont want to raise with it.

Bear in mind jiggus is currently 10NL and several FTRers have commented that it is possible to get as far as graduating 25NL (Bankroll wise) just by set hunting alone. 22 is an extremely profitable hand for me because I pay a couple BB to play it and fold it unless I hit a set. Unless someone has a higher set (very rare) or someone draws out on me afterwards (afterwhich I stop putting money in) I take down a huge pot.

I can understand folding small PP preflop in a tournament once the blinds get big because you will have run out of chips seeing flops before you actually make a hand, but with 100BB refillable stacks in a cash game there is no excuse to fold them preflop unless your opponents are either not paying them off, or are raising too much to make them profitable. At 10NL they work just fine.

As far as im concernece Jiggs, and im playing the same games as you, the best way to play these is to limp/call cheap flops and see if you can set. The only exception is on the tight table you might find yourself at once a month when you can raise from the button/CO and steal on the flop.

AK is is my most profitable hand.

It brings home more chips than AA (not per hand, but the fact that I get AK (suited or unsuited) 3 times as often as I get AA.

In EP you gotta raise, but not that much. You want to raise so that weaker aces and KQ is willing to give it a call. Raise 4xBB. You'll hit the flop about a third of the time, so you wanna build the pot and get 2 or 3 callers. Check the flop if you miss, and call if you have odds on overcards/gutshot draw and fold otherwise. Bet about 3/4 pot if you hit TPTK or better. If minraised on the flop I assume my hand is good. If flat called on flop and raised on turn, try to get a cheap showdown.

In late position, raise as much as you need to isolate. You'll get a feel of that as you play the game more. In my game, probably raise to 6BB or 7BB if there are limpers. Then use your post flop skillz... if you managed to isolate, cont bet about 80% if you miss. With 2 players, look at the flop and see. Free card is never bad either.

So in a nutshell: in EP, raise smallish and try to hit TPTK and hope u got some moron outkicked.
In LP, isolate and look to cont bet.
In the blinds, isolate and look to cont bet. A large raise here. You'd like to get the limpers to fold if possible.

Facing a raise, reraise the pot if in position. Fold to a pre-flop re-raise. Cont bet almost any flop hard and check/fold if called. If you hit TPTK you gotta assume your hand is good. Facing a raise in the blinds... I don't know. You can call if there's other players who have called the raise. If it's just you and the raiser, you can fold or you can reraise and cont bet OOP if you're feeling adventuorus.

I play 200NL. But the principle is the same

P.S. if you vary the size of your PFR it's not because of what hand you got (unless it's AA/KK). In MP you want to raise enough to get position and hopefully a limper will come along for the ride. In LP you want to raise enough to isolate. In EP, raise so you can get a few callers (including dominated hands). Doesn't matter whether it's with AK, AQ, KQ, JJ or whatever. Cont bets should be probably 3/4 pot to 4/5 pot. If you actually hit on a rainbow board you can occasionally go for a 1/2 pot bet.

as for the argument about 22... here's how I play the PPs:

EP: fold 22-66. Limp 77-JJ, call a raise not larger than 4BB + 1BB for each other person who has called the raise.

MP: limp 22-JJ in an unraised pot. Same requirements as above for calling a raise. Drop it if it doesn't set.

LP: limp 22-99 for a set. Open raise 10.10-QQ, and reraise KK/AA. With 10.10-QQ you're looking to do the same thing as with AK. Isolate and cont bet. You can't expect to get unders flop all the time. 3/4 pot bet on just about any flop.

I raise 10.10 because I'm doing the isolate and cont bet for AK/AQ/KQ/AJ and maybe KJ so that's a lot of hands. Therefore, I don't want to be in a situation where a bet on a rag flop means i'm weak 80% of the time.

It's possible to be more adventurous with PPs and raise stuff like 88. But I feel I have a good balance between making life easy for myself and not giving up too much value.

Limping any PP for set in any position is not *wrong*... especially in low limits, but it's not what I like to do. But folding 22 in MP with one limper is criminal IMO.

Keep at it Jiggus man... I reckon u got what it takes

Thanks Salsa. Some encouragement is needed, and is much appreciated, especially from someone like yourself.

I'm printing out this thread. Never thought it would generate so many replies.

Anyhow, things are not going well. However, I'm not looking at my bankroll now, only at PT stats. I've tightened up to my "old" AOK-advised preflop strategy, but it seems as if I'm just having a bad run.

Played 500 hands the last two days, saw the flop 19% of the time and have only one 12% of that. That is NOT normal.

I'm finding that the players SEEM even worse at this limit than at $2. They certainly play dodgier starting hands. Unsuited double and triple gappers are very often spotted in showdowns.

I got burned three times yesterday, twice by the same guy who busted my trips with a straight both times. However, since I'm playing very passively now, until I get some wins under my belt, at least I didn't lose my entire stack. The trickle, however, is still demoralising.

Another thing I notice, is that there are more blind thieves here.

It's all very surreal. I played this limit before I had apparently "found" my game, and I could win 40 bucks in a session. Now I can't break even, playing much more sensibly. I realise it could all be due to a bad run, and 2,000 hands isn't enough to know yet, but still, it's like fate.

My logic tells me that if the players are just as bad as at the lower limit, the same strategy that won there should work here. Right?

However, since I'm playing very passively now, until I get some wins under my belt, at least I didn't lose my entire stack. The trickle, however, is still demoralising.

Oh dear. Why do you assume that passive = winning? It doesn't, and it won't. You'll win by playing your good hands aggressively and making money off idiots who call with bad odds.

If you continue to play passively, I promise you the money will continue to trickle away. Playing aggressively DOES NOT mean you have to go all-in on every hand. It means you bet hard and use the info your opp gives you to determine whether to bet for value or fold if you're beat. It means you bet enough to never give drawing hands good odss, but fold if a clear flush draw hits on the river and bets as if he's hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Jiggus, only play AK past the flop if you hit a king or ace. If anyone is showing you resistance, they are beating you with at least a pair. And if you can't get them to fold their pair on the flop when you have ace high, what makes you think you are going to get them to fold on the turn or river?

---

This guy should have heeded your words... Looks like they got into a pissing match. It was pretty entertaining to watch. There was a lot of pausing between all the raises. Until pecks99 said screw it and punched it. I really don't know how GotNo could've called that. It was like that old saying "here's your sign" BTW I would've won this hand BUT I am trying to be a goot poker player.

***** Hand History for Game 3526037024 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Thu Feb 09 23:58:26 EST 2006
Table Table 69280 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: GotNo ( $47.85)
Seat 2: twnty4seven ( $23.60)
Seat 3: jessmith ( $24.75)
Seat 4: KyeJoe ( $18.75)
Seat 5: mpethybridge ( $60.45)
Seat 6: dannyd267 ( $17.30)
Seat 7: baobao917 ( $34.25)
Seat 8: pecks99 ( $34.20)
Seat 9: Rookster24 ( $28.20)
Seat 10: olinONE ( $24.15)
GotNo posts small blind (0.10)
twnty4seven posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dannyd267 [ 2d, Kd ]
jessmith calls (0.25)
KyeJoe folds.
mpethybridge folds.
dannyd267 folds.
baobao917 folds.
pecks99 calls (0.25)
Rookster24 folds.
olinONE folds.
GotNo raises (0.90) to 1
twnty4seven folds.
jessmith folds.
pecks99 calls (0.75)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qc, 4c, Ad ]
GotNo bets (0.50)
pecks99 raises (1) to 1
GotNo raises (1) to 1.50
pecks99 raises (1) to 2
GotNo raises (1) to 2.50
pecks99 raises (4) to 6
GotNo raises (7.50) to 10
pecks99 raises (19) to 25
GotNo calls (15)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5s ]
GotNo checks.
pecks99 bets (8.20)
pecks99 is all-In.
GotNo calls (8.20)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
Creating Main Pot with $65.90 with pecks99
** Summary **
Main Pot: $65.90 | | Rake: $3
Board: [ Qc 4c Ad 5s 3d ]
GotNo balance $13.65, lost $34.20 [ Ac Kh ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,Ad,Kh,Qc,5s ]
twnty4seven balance $23.35, lost $0.25 (folded)
jessmith balance $24.50, lost $0.25 (folded)
KyeJoe balance $18.75, didn't bet (folded)
mpethybridge balance $60.45, didn't bet (folded)
dannyd267 balance $17.30, didn't bet (folded)
baobao917 balance $34.25, didn't bet (folded)
pecks99 balance $65.90, bet $34.20, collected $65.90, net +$31.70 [ 4h 4s ] [ three of a kind, fours -- Ad,Qc,4h,4s,4c ]
Rookster24 balance $28.20, didn't bet (folded)
olinONE balance $24.15, didn't bet (folded)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by biondino

However, since I'm playing very passively now, until I get some wins under my belt, at least I didn't lose my entire stack. The trickle, however, is still demoralising.

Oh dear. Why do you assume that passive = winning? It doesn't, and it won't. You'll win by playing your good hands aggressively and making money off idiots who call with bad odds.

If you continue to play passively, I promise you the money will continue to trickle away. Playing aggressively DOES NOT mean you have to go all-in on every hand. It means you bet hard and use the info your opp gives you to determine whether to bet for value or fold if you're beat. It means you bet enough to never give drawing hands good odss, but fold if a clear flush draw hits on the river and bets as if he's hit.

---

OK,... everyone thinks I'm a true maroon, I see, but really, I'm not as stupid as I sometimes appear. Still a maroon, but maybe 3rd class, as opposed to 1st class.

Whilst I truly appreciate all the response to this post, I really don't play AK that poorly as a rule.

Secondly, Mr Biondino, I do tend to disagree with your above-noted quote, and here's why.

I should have used the term "counterplay" as opposed to passive, though an element of counterplay is passivity. This strategy is proven. It works well against tables of morons and sharks. It isn't perfect, of course, but the idea behind it, is to minimise suck-outs and bad beats and to maximise profits from your strong hands.

Gee, doesn't that sound like what you went on to write in your last reply?

What I'm seeing at these limits, is the same sort of players as at the lower limits.

Let me put this to the test. I've got about 3,000 hands in now. About 1,000 of those were from before I smartened up my play, so they really shouldn't count but I'll leave 'em in. I'm definitely doing poorly in all PT categories at the moment. I'll let you know how my results are in 1,000 more hands.

My BB/100 at the moment is -11.65. That's up from almost -16 a couple of days ago.

Let me try my theory and see if it doesn't improve more. If it doesn't then I'll adopt a new approach.