pocket pairs and a pair on the board

please give me a pointer if this has been covered I have looked but searching is not easy as all the search terms occur many times

the question is: what should I do (as a rule of thumb) if I have a pocket pair and another pair shows up on the flop?
The genreal rule (elsewhere on the forum) seems to be fold if you miss the set.
Instinct tells me that if a second pair is flopped then I should fold an underpair and raise an overpair.

The whole situation makes my head hurt :?

I have to take into account the danger of someone having trips against the
probability of me having the top hand with the possiblity of drawing a full house. Does the 3rd Card matter ?

Advice appreciated.

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Originally Posted by thanatos

the question is: what should I do (as a rule of thumb) if I have a pocket pair and another pair shows up on the flop?
The genreal rule (elsewhere on the forum) seems to be fold if you miss the set.
Instinct tells me that if a second pair is flopped then I should fold an underpair and raise an overpair.

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It all depends on your position. For example if the pot is Heads up, and you act after the other player in the pot, then you could raise if he bets into you, and easily fold to a reraise.

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Does the 3rd Card matter ?

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Yes, if your pocket pair is higher than the non-paired board card, then you are more likely ahead.

think of it this way - EVERYONE ELSE SEES THE PAIR ON THE BOARD TOO!!

So, what are they going to do?
1. if they made trips
2. if they have a pocket pair (overpair and underpair)
3. if they have overcards

if you have an underpair why stay in the hand, really? you're scared of overcards and can't play aggressively. Anything truly aggressive you do is really just a bluff.

Overcards MIGHT call a smallish bet. Someone with overcards in late position MIGHT make a bet to take the pot if no one bets in front of them. The person with the trips (of they exist) might bet or he might check/raise.

This IS complicated. It's a tough situation with an overpair vs a board pair... again there's no reason to stay around with an underpair in this situation. Your goal is to find out as soon as possible if you're beat - imo.

First, look at the size of the pot. Is it worth winning anyway? If not then let it go. You're going to risk alot to gain a little. And in case no one ever told you this - Poker is about winning THE MOST MONEY with THE LEAST RISK. If you only win 1 hand and make $100 that's better than winning 100 hand and making $1. Correct? So who cares about winning the "hand"? Your goal is to win the most money with THE LEAST RISK.

Next - what do you have and what is the board pair? Did you raise preflop with KK? Did you limp with TT? Again, we're not playing if the board pair is above our pocket pair, right? This will really clear things up because, in multi-way limp pots people generally have a ten a jack a king or a queen, or a weak ace. So if you have JJ and the board goes TT6 in a multi-way pot. That's not good. However if you have TT and the board goes 448 then you're more likely to have the best cards.

Next, how to play it? Early position, you can bet and see what happens, but how are you going to interpret a simple CALL behind you? And you're risking too much because of your position. So, early position, check with the thought of possibly CHECK/RAISING to a bet behind you. There are 3 possible outcomes... YOU CHECK...
1. Someone else bets, gets raised and it's back to you.... FOLD.
2. Someone else bets the players behind him fold and it comes back to you. Now you have whoever else checked before the bettor and the bettor in the hand. RAISE TWICE THE MINIMUM RAISE or fold. It's your choice - again based on the pot. Now, whoever calls at this point has you beat 80% of the time. And a reraise is a sure sign you're dead. CHECK/FOLD the turn unless you catch a Full House. BUT YOU FOUND OUT WHERE YOU STOOD AND LOST THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY. A 2x min raise on the flop is alot cheaper than playing the hand out.

(example 1/2 nl table) you limp TT with 3 other players in the hand the small blind folds - pot 9. flop comes 884. you check next player checks, there's a 4 bet, next guy folds and it comes back to you. You raise to 12, making it 25 pot. they fold, you win a 25 pot with a 12 bet. .... Alternate scenario. same preflop pot is 9, guy bets 4, you call - pot is 17. on the turn the guy bets 8 and you call again. You put the same 12 in but have no new information. River is a K and his AK beats your TT. OR you decide to raise on the turn - now you have to raise alot more. OR now you check the turn and SO DOES HE. Crap! You do have him beat - NOW THE OVERCARD HITS. Crap again. You check again and he bets$4, you call and see his KQ hit top pair. OR same thing happens, you check/call onthe flop. Check the turn, so does he. Overcard hits on the river so you check again, so does he and you win a nothing pot against his Ax suited or whatever. (but that's the least likely scenario because it's a multiway pot with weak betting).

Got it?

Late position... It's the same thing except you don't have to check first. If someone bets in front then raise them (as long as it's a reasonable bet) If someone calls or reraises then you're done. If it checks around to you then check and see the turn. You're really looking for excuses to get out of this hand at this point.. The pot is small and the risk is high.

If you raised preflop with KK or something like that, then they will check it around to you, you should make a 2/3 pot continuation bet and if you're called or raised you're beat, probably. check the turn. There is a chance that they have put you on AK and are trying you out - it just depends AGAIN on what the board pair is TT, JJ, QQ, AA are all bad for you IFYOU HAVE KK. Is this the hand where you're going to lose your buyin because you can't put kk down when it's probably beat by an unlucky flop?????

BUT since you raised preflop the pot is worth betting into on the flop with a strong continuation bet - and you should have less players to beat. You just don't want to go broke in a no win situation.


gl

(this all assumes you're playing NL ring... Limit - whatever keep playing. Limit is limit. MTT, SNG then you're making a decision on the flop for all your chips probably adn there are very few multiway limp pots if the blinds are any size at all.)

There's no hard and fast rule for this sort of situation ... too much depends on your opps, the preflop action and the board texture. Keep in mind that the paired board reduces the chances that someone caught a piece of the flop. If you're holding a pocket pair and the paired rank isn't too high, there's a fair chance that you're ahead.

If you are holding 77 and the flop is 994, that's a pretty good flop for your pocket pair. This situation gets really tricky, especially in a raised pot; in this instance a lot falls on your ability to put your opps on a hand...

Regarding overpairs: it depends on what rank of cards is paired on the flop.

If you're holding AA and the flop comes KK8, you should proceed with reasonable caution. (OTOH T55 would be a better flop for your AA). Do you see why? :)

Of course if you are holding a underpair to the entire board your hand is worth somewhat less.

That was an amazing post Tony. I learn something every single time you write one, thanks for all the thoughts.

Thanks guys !

The advice is of a much higher quality than I had hoped for. :D
A lot to digest so I am going to save these type of hands and anaylse them in light of your posts in the coming weeks.

God I love this game , a continuous journey of discovery.