Passive KK line

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02-12-2006, 04:57 PM
bdawg56kg

Passive KK line

No reads on UTG+1, but CO is a total calling station fish. He's called every single one of my preflop raises in the last hour, and I've been playing standard TAG. Thoughts?

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($197.00)
SB ($227.00)
BB ($189.00)
UTG ($164.25)
UTG+1 ($143.00)
UTG+2 ($138.50)
Hero ($530.75)
MP2 ($198.00)
MP3 ($299.75)
CO ($89.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K:heart:, K:spade:. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2, UTG+2 calls $2, Hero raises to $10, 2 folds, CO calls $10, 3 folds, "nh"UTG+1 calls $8, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: ($35) 2:diamond:, 8:spade:, 2:club: (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $20, CO calls $20, UTG+1 calls $20.

Turn: ($95) T:diamond: (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($95) 3:diamond: (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $26, Hero calls $26, CO raises to $59.75, UTG+1 raises to $101, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $281.75
02-12-2006, 05:24 PM
lolzzz_321

i like it
02-12-2006, 06:00 PM
Pelion

Why check the turn? I want to know what you are thinking there :)
02-12-2006, 06:02 PM
lolzzz_321

He is wondering y both opps called his c bet
02-12-2006, 08:05 PM
dr3wfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

He is wondering y both opps called his c bet

Hero is fearing flopped set(s) after cold-called c-bet. Fair enough in my book, I hate being oop with an overpair and opponents who are calling. I know its weak but I also like to check the turn to try and control the pot size. I think with the action on the river you have to let it go.

Anyone suggest how to proceed on the turn with an overpair against an opponent(s) that have cold-called your flop bet? This is a common situation I am faced with and would really like some input..
02-12-2006, 08:19 PM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr3wfish

Anyone suggest how to proceed on the turn with an overpair against an opponent(s) that have cold-called your flop bet? This is a common situation I am faced with and would really like some input..

Thats why I asked
02-12-2006, 10:24 PM
purespeed

Yeah, this situation seems to come up for me quite often as well. What I've found is that opps will call flop c-bets with missed overcards, esp. AK, AQ, etc. Firing a 2nd round on the turn usually gets them to fold, so unless I know opps are solid, I will bet the turn. If I get raised a good amount on the turn, then I'm confident that I'm against a set so I fold.

Loose players also call the entire way w/ Lower PP's...

Someone with good insight into this topic please post :)
02-12-2006, 10:39 PM
WhooFleuryScores

Quote:

Anyone suggest how to proceed on the turn with an overpair against an opponent(s) that have cold-called your flop bet?

You need to make a turn sized bet that you can get away from.On the flop I would bet more say.....closer to $30(pot bet is too much and dangerous vs 2 opponents).

That being said on the turn you need to bet somewhere from $63 to $67($75 to $90 is too much and could pot commit you).If you had bet the $30 on the flop then the pot on the turn would be $135; so in that case you would need to bet $93 to $95 for information(anything less and the draws would have good odds to continue,and any observant opponent may sense weakness and make a play at you).

IF YOU ARE RAISED or cold called there then you can safely get off the hand.You're making the information bet to save money basically.

River fold is good.
02-13-2006, 12:24 AM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

You need to make a turn sized bet that you can get away from.On the flop I would bet more say.....closer to $30(pot bet is too much and dangerous vs 2 opponents).

That being said on the turn you need to bet somewhere from $63 to $67($75 to $90 is too much and could pot commit you).If you had bet the $30 on the flop then the pot on the turn would be $135; so in that case you would need to bet $93 to $95 for information(anything less and the draws would have good odds to continue,and any observant opponent may sense weakness and make a play at you).

IF YOU ARE RAISED or cold called there then you can safely get off the hand.You're making the information bet to save money basically.

Why do I need to bet more on the flop? On a 822 rainbow board, it's usually hit or miss, so a smaller c-bet will get the job done, assuming opponents have missed the flop.

Why do I need to bet so much ($63-$67) on the turn? Are you really afraid of straight/flush draws? I think the whole concept of raising or betting for information is almost cliched, and is an overrated concept. Also, why is it bad for opponents to think I'm weak and try to make a move on me? Don't you want to encourage this?
02-13-2006, 12:40 AM
bdawg56kg

Results: CO showed 33 and UTG+1 showed 22 for the flopped quads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr3wfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

He is wondering y both opps called his c bet

Hero is fearing flopped set(s) after cold-called c-bet. Fair enough in my book, I hate being oop with an overpair and opponents who are calling. I know its weak but I also like to check the turn to try and control the pot size. I think with the action on the river you have to let it go.

Hey dr3wfish! You and Triptanes basically nailed my thought process right on the nose. This is what I was thinking during the hand. Preflop and flop c-bet are both standard. When the CO (fish) calls my c-bet I am not worried at all, and trying to figure out how to best get the rest of his stack. Now UTG+1 smooth calls the $20! WTF?!?! I mean either he's a fish clinging on to some pocket pair, or he has an absolute monster, and since I have no read on him I have to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Turn is meaningless and UTG+1 checks. The reason I chose to check here has two effects. It minimizes the amount I put in if I am beat, as well as controls the pot size so I can get to showdown cheaper. Also, checking really disguises the strength of my hand and makes it easier to pick off a river "bluff." For all they know I have AK and am giving up here. Now CO checks behind which confirms my read that he has crap. I am not worried about giving a free card here in the sense that I might get outdrawn. If I'm ahead then I'm way ahead, and if behind, I'm way behind.

River play is standard IMO. UTG+1 bets out pretty weak, so I just decide to call thinking that raising will only get better hands to 3-bet me. Then CO pushes and UTG+1 raises, making it an easy fold for me.

Think about this: if I had bet the turn, I probably would have had to fold to a CR by UTG+1 or would have a very hard river decision, costing me at least $60. But as played, assuming CO doesn't hit his miracle boat on the river, I only am paying $26 more for a showdown in which my hand will be best a pretty good percentage of the time.