Fnord v Lukie

Can you put either of us on a hand?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (Lukie) ($97.50)
BB ($168.70)
UTG ($80)
MP1 ($351.90)
MP2 ($134.05)
Fnord ($119.45)
Button ($46.95)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with ? ?
3 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, SB (Lukie) calls $2.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($7) 7:spade:, J:diamond:, 7:diamond: (2 players)
Lukie bets $5, Fnord calls $5.

Turn: ($17) A:club: (2 players)
Lukie checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($17) 2:spade: (2 players)
Lukie bets $10, Fnord raises to $30, Lukie raises to $89.5, Fnord folds.

What's your read :)

I'll guess first before the more insightful people chime in...

Lukie AJ
Fnord Kd10d

Hrrrm.. Lukie's flop lead into PFRer, check turn, 3 bet AI river looks like quite the line. He's either incredibly smart or incredibly stupid. Fnord's range, coupled with his flop and turn action gives a little bit of hope for the former.

Fnord has a wide opening range from the CO. Lukie has posted a lot of hands leading into the PFRer, and has c/r'd Fnord on the turn with a strong hand after leading the flop in the past. Hard to know exactly what he (Fnord) is thinking. My best guess would be something that he likes on the flop, but doesn't want to build a huge pot with 2 cards to come with. If he has air, he takes the opportunity to steal on the turn, but instead chooses to either trap a big hand, or excersize pot control + picking off a river bluff.

The plan apparantly works as Lukie bets the river, but Fnord has a big hand (I think AJ) and tries to get value on the river, folding to the 3-bet. Fnord probably can't call that bet without a boat, and could easily fold 7x or AJ here.

Going out to eat, I'll be back.

Hmm. I'll take a stab.

Lukie: 77/JJ/AA/A7

Fnord: Diamonds (89, 9T, Ax, etc.), air, 7x/Jx or AJ but somehow I don't think so...

My guess...

Fnord on AJ/TT
Lukie on 78s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

air

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:shock:

I would NEVER bluff in a spot like that....

:whistle:

Either Lukie had a big hand or big balls, I'm leaning towards the hand.

I'm guessing Fnord was on a draw and bluffed the river, and Lukie had A-7. It seems likely that Lukie has a full house or trips by the river given his action. If he had trips, then his hand would be somewhat overplayed on the river (Fnord's line looks like a potential slow-play, even if trips were the best hand, calling the river raise is probably the prudent / correct play), so I'm leaning towards a full house. I doubt he would've lead out with J-J or 2-2, and he'd probably frequently reraise preflop with A-A (also, if he was trapping preflop, he would probably continue trapping on the flop as well by checking), so A-7 seems like a reasonable guess. K-10 of diamonds seems like a likely hand for Fnord to be holding, given in part by the "liveness" of the cards. He raise-bluffs the river putting Lukie on at best a weak made hand that can't stand much pressure, and folds to a raise. Obviously I could be completely wrong, but this situation seems fairly likely.

if fnords been really loose i think lukie could just have a 7, otherwise full house

i'm not so sure on fnords. aj seems like one of the more likely things. if you trust lukie i could see you folding a 7, but i don't know you'd get to the river with one in this way.

If lukie has anything less then a full house he overplayed his hand. Fnord probably has a jack, because he should have bet the turn if he hit his ace.

But I'm guessing the hands were exactly played specatular.

When I made my post above^^^^ it was supposed to be like an outside observer looking at my own hand.

I had JJ. So he probably doesn't have AJ. Although it would make a lot of sense, just unlikely. Here's my thought process during the hand...

Folds to Fnord's CO, he raises it up with a wide range, I consider 3-betting preflop but just decide to take a flop. JJJ77 :). At this point, I have the deck pretty crippled, so I'm trying to balance a line that wins me a moderate sized pot if he has nothing, while still getting all the money in the middle of he has something he likes. I often lead with a pretty wide range here.. say 2 diamonds, Jx, 7x, 77, JJ, maybe even hands like 88-TT. I think Fnord is aware of this, at least to a point. If he has air, I expect he often folds, sometimes raises, and rarely calls (if he does, he's trying to steal the turn though...).

Turn I should probably just lead again. At the time, I'm thinking 1) if he has air, he almost certainly gives me credit after leading into the PFRer twice, but if he's floating, he's going to try to take it down if I show weakness here. And 2) i've posted some hands here on leading flop, checking turn because I'm unsure. However, he's also aware that I'm very capable of pulling a c/r here (and indeed it is what I was going for), so leading again is probably the best move, and in hindsight, I'm nearly certain that he raises a turn lead here (doh!).

Anyway, he checks behind, so it just looks like a pot control move, possibly a trap with a big hand. The river will quickly show which. I make a pretty callable river bet which is met with a big raise. At this point, I'm pretty sure that he holds 7x, maybe a 78s type hand.

If he has what I think he had, I think all of these lines get all the money into the middle...

lead flop, lead turn
c/r flop, lead turn
c/c flop, lead turn
c/c flop, c/r turn

Yeah, after thinking about it I think my turn check is pretty bad. Even if Fnord bets, my line is very transparent here, leading the flop into the PFRer, check/raise turn, lead river? I think betting the turn gets more money into the pot while more effectively disguising the strength of my hand... oh well. Also, Fnord, I normally wouldn't want to give out my hand in this situation just b/c I often play games with FTRers, but you've given me so much good advice in the past I feel I had to...

Fnord: Suited Connectors/low-medium pocket pair or even suited junk.
Lukie: Ace nice kicker/ medium pp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doubleglazin

Fnord: Suited Connectors/low-medium pocket pair or even suited junk.
Lukie: Ace nice kicker/ medium pp

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ur joking right?

even if i didn't post the results (from my end), do you really think we are that horrible?

With J-J on this flop out of position against Fnord, I would almost always check-raise the flop. His most likely hand is essentially nothing, so it's important to give him a chance to bluff the flop. Once you've given him this opportunity, you've already extracted the maximum when he has nothing, so you can now make a raise hoping he has either a draw, overpair, or a 7, now hoping to extract the maximum from these hands as well. If he reraises, simply call, then check-raise the turn. If he calls, then bet the turn and hope he raises (or if he's particularly aggressive, go for another check-raise). It seems you're afraid of appearing too strong in this situation, but the flop check-raise is really not necessarily that strong of a play if you do this frequently facing a likely positional play. Also, even if this is likely to be interpreted as strength, in order to get money in the pot, you must expose strength at some point. The difference between exposing it now, or on a later street is relatively insignificant. By making strong plays when he is weak, you're only losing some very marginal value that would have been gained through making weak plays, but you win his money more efficiently and with less complication when he isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoGGz

Fnord probably has a jack, because he should have bet the turn if he hit his ace.

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Betting Aces up on the turn could put me in a difficult spot against a thinking TAgg in a blind spew spot. Quite often I would check it behind to induce the bluff and show it down.

my first instinct was JJ vs 78s/67s....but then I thought these guys are definately capable of playing a wider range this way to see who is the man...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoGGz

Fnord probably has a jack, because he should have bet the turn if he hit his ace.

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Betting Aces up on the turn could put me in a difficult spot against a thinking TAgg in a blind spew spot. Quite often I would check it behind to induce the bluff and show it down.

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I agree............ so, what did you have?

I've been kinda curious too you know. ;)

I had KTo

i had lukie on any pair and fnord on the flop gutshot considering pushing lukie off on a later street.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I had KTo

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Nice.

You can push me off a lot of hands on that river, unfortunately you ran into a monster. :)

Quote:

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If he has air, I expect he often folds, sometimes raises, and rarely calls (if he does, he's trying to steal the turn though...).

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yeah, so, um... I was a little off there.

Lukie has JJ
Fnord has AQ

1 for 2 ain't bad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Can you put either of us on a hand?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (Lukie) ($97.50)
BB ($168.70)
UTG ($80)
MP1 ($351.90)
MP2 ($134.05)
Fnord ($119.45)
Button ($46.95)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with ? ?
3 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, SB (Lukie) calls $2.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($7) 7:spade:, J:diamond:, 7:diamond: (2 players)
Lukie bets $5, Fnord calls $5.

Turn: ($17) A:club: (2 players)
Lukie checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($17) 2:spade: (2 players)
Lukie bets $10, Fnord raises to $30, Lukie raises to $89.5, Fnord folds.

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Fun hand - not looking at replies first so we'll see how bad I am.

Lukie has a monster. My guesses would be :Ah: :7h:, JJ, or 77.

Fnord has either a draw or is just using position and trying to push Lukie off of a hand. The first hand that jumped into my mind was a flush draw hand like :Td: :Kd: or even :8d: :9d: or :9d: :Td:, I guess the nut-flush draw is possible, but I would think there would be some bettng by Fnord on the turn if that was the case.

A7 hearts because Pokerstars always gives out heart flushes?

I like your line of thinking. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

air

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:shock:

I would ALWAYS bluff in a spot like that....

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FYP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by midas06

A7 hearts because Pokerstars always gives out heart flushes?

I like your line of thinking. :)

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A7 hearts because I found Lukie's call to be more proabble with A7 suited ratehr than A7 os (although I realize the difference is not that great). The only suited A7 hand that fit here was A7 hearts.

Anyhoo - my read was not so bad.