What would you have done with this hand?

200NL table at BD. Three players all with full stacks. I have no real read on any of the players. I am in the BB with A8 of hearts. Player in first position calls, Player on the Button calls, I call unraised pot.
Flop comes 4h 5h JC. I lead out and bet 6 dollars. Player in first position makes it 15. Player on the button calls the 15, I call the remaining 9. The turn brings the Ad. I check player in first position goes all in. Button folds, I think about for a while fold at last second. Player in first position shows 6h 7h. I have spoken to several people about this hand. I have had some say I have to make this call. Others say fold was correct. The interesting thing is I have asked several pro’s at "FT" what they think. They all say call in a second.

Fold. You would think anyone else who was on a flush draw would just call your flop bet. Therefore I put them on a set, two pair, or possibly AJ. Stacks are too deep to call hoping they have a lower flush draw or KJ. You folded and he moronically showed you his cards. You now should have a better read on him.

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Originally Posted by saywhat2

The interesting thing is I have asked several pro’s at "FT" what they think. They all say call in a second.

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Did they give reasons?

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Originally Posted by r8ed

Fold. You would think anyone else who was on a flush draw would just call your flop bet. Therefore I put them on a set, two pair, or possibly AJ. Stacks are too deep to call hoping they have a lower flush draw or KJ. You folded and he moronically showed you his cards. You now should have a better read on him.

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I think where I went wrong was at the turn. When I hit the ace I should have went all in. He would have been hard pressed to call without a set. And even if he had a set I still have outs for the flush.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by saywhat2

The interesting thing is I have asked several pro’s at "FT" what they think. They all say call in a second.

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Did they give reasons?

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...and did you tell them what he had before they answered? It's not a horrible call but with full stacks I don't see it as good call.

So he bet about $150 into a pot of around $50? That's a very suspicous overbet but I think you gotta fold here unless you have a read because stacks are deep and you're not getting odds. He could have JA or a set here in which case you're drawing at 9 or fewer outs with 1 card to come. Just muck and wait for a better opportunity.

I don't think it's neccessarily stupid of UTG to show his cards here, assuming he's not planning on making a similar play any time soon and the next time he overbet pushes on a draw-happy board he's holding a monster. I find advertising that you're willing to put a lot of money in the pot with an unmade hand is a very good thing in NL. That being said, I normally wait for someone to catch me on a bluff or semibluff to let the table know I'm willing to gamble and push people around.

In a three handed game, AJ raises 95% of the time, no matter what kind of player it is. Js would probably raise as well. 4s and 5s are a possibility, but an overbet just doesn't make sense. If he actually had a set and thinks you're drawing, then he bets the pot, not AI.

In a full game the villian can put someone on hitting an ace that might call his AI overbet, but not here.

Calling overbets too much has been a recurring hole in my game, but here I think it's justified.

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Originally Posted by twosevoff

So he bet about $150 into a pot of around $50? That's a very suspicous overbet but I think you gotta fold here unless you have a read because stacks are deep and you're not getting odds. He could have JA or a set here in which case you're drawing at 9 or fewer outs with 1 card to come. Just muck and wait for a better opportunity.

I don't think it's neccessarily stupid of UTG to show his cards here, assuming he's not planning on making a similar play any time soon and the next time he overbet pushes on a draw-happy board he's holding a monster. I find advertising that you're willing to put a lot of money in the pot with an unmade hand is a very good thing in NL. That being said, I normally wait for someone to catch me on a bluff or semibluff to let the table know I'm willing to gamble and push people around.

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Yea, I have no problem with his play here at all. I love the hand he had. If it where me I would have went all in at the flop. Because he has 15 outs and a 54% draw. But thats me. I still think my play was to put him all in at the turn first. Anyway live and learn. And one piece of info I left out it was a 9 player game with 3 people calling.

I am folding here. TPWK and a 19% chance of making the nut flush against someone who has raised a flop and then pushed into strength shown by two others. This possibly means that I am simply a worse player than he is - and certainly I've never even got close to 200NL (Dwarfy's challenge excepted) - but I think his bet is just too much of a risk with only a draw. Props to him for his balls, and props to you for playing tight.

all in smells of a semi bluff, especially considering the flop raise with position on original bettor. His problem then arises with the button calling meaning he either hits the turn or has to take a real bluff/gambOOl on the turn that noone has a hand to call an all in with
call time, after a few seconds of thought. Pot is also nice and worth winning without showdown which si anther reason to gambOOL

I might consider leading the turn. If he has the courage to move in after you lead at the flop and turn; I'd give him more credit for a hand. The way the hand played out; I think it's a tough decision, but I'd lean towards folding.
Reasons for folding:
1) He limped in then pumped it up on a Jxx board; what hands would he open limp that would contain a J? Seems more like a set or a slowplayed big pair that didn't like the drawy board. On the turn, both a J or a big pair don't make sense anymore with the ace on board.
2) Stacks are pretty deep; and you don't have much invested.
Reasons for calling:
1) The overbet. As Miffed22001 mentioned; it screams bluff/semi-bluff. Then again I know of players that would move in with a set in this spot; either hoping that you had the nut flush draw and won't fold your top pair; or that you would think they were bluffing and call with a J/A.