Is there ever a right time to ignore bankroll management?

It is the beginners circle so any question goes, even committing the sin of ignoring BR management.

Example: I am rolling along nicely crushing the micro limits @ .2/.4 and .5/10 but it is going to takes weeks and weeks to have the correct bankroll to move up .10/.20. I don’t have a monitor large enough to multi-table with out overlapping, and I’m not comfortable with multi-table with out seeing all that is going on at the same time. So can I justify moving up to the next level without the bankroll?

If things don’t work out at the next level I can always drop back down and make the BR. I guess I’m asking is it ever okay to test the waters of the next level, without the BR?

sure it is. As long as you make sure you drop back down again as soon as you lose a buyin even if it was a bad beat or whatever. Id say its fine to try it but dont go below 10 buyins. The reason its ok is because if you bust out you can always scrape up $20 and play 2NL so it isnt reaaaally your real bankroll. If it really is the only money you can afford to put to poker then you should probably stick to the BR management rules (or get a real job instead of playing poker all day :wink: )

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Originally Posted by dvda

I don’t have a monitor large enough to multi-table with out overlapping, and I’m not comfortable with multi-table with out seeing all that is going on at the same time.

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Scrape together >250 dollars and play the 25 on party.

The new software has autotile windows options (four tables no overlap regardless of monitor size).

I agree with pelion. If you are pretty confident in your ability to beat the next level then give it a shot. Just make sure you drop back down if everything doesn't go according to plan. Don't be 'testing the water' with like 2 buyins either, make sure you have at least 8.

And don't tilt if you loose 5 buyins for your lower level games in 1 hand at the higher level.

Also practicing getting used to multi-tabling at the lower stakes. It really is the key to getting through the lower limits without falling asleep.

WHAT?!??! 10NL is so much fun! I wont allow myself to break the 20 buyin rule :( If I break it once Ill break it again.

What you could do is go play at total poker. Depsoit $50 get $100 after 1000raked(need to be contributed I think BB and SB count tho so it takes awhile) I 5 table 10nl and have made about $100 and still have $250 to go. By the time Im done I should have at least $400. Then I am going to empire and depositing it(I might not get the max bonus I might only get $80 but w/e) and clear that and I should be rolled for 25nl.

there are plenty of short cuts to making a bankroll. Playing out of it isnt the best idea. Bonus whoring might be

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

there are plenty of short cuts to making a bankroll. Playing out of it isnt the best idea. Bonus whoring might be

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QFT

Just like in real life, you need money to make money. To bonus whore, you really need to start with $200 minimum and you have to play at stakes high enough to clear the bonus (usually $25+). If you have $200, I think you should casino whore because it's low risk. EasyT and eeeee can help you there. Once you get to $500 and to 25NL, you can quickly build up.

Moving up is fine, but be prepared to move back down if needed.

Are we talking limit or NL here?

And exactly how much have you got?

Just to repeat myself, learn to camp multi-table and your problem is solved.

Are we talking limit or NL here?

And exactly how much have you got?

Just to repeat myself, learn to camp multi-table and your problem is solved.

I disagree with the people who say that it's okay.

If you really want to play higher, deposit more money. If you can't, then you have to grind it out.

First of all, if you do "move up" thinking that you'll move right back down if "testing the waters" is unsuccessful and then you bust due to a bad beat, was that really "testing the waters"? You're gonna be like, "dammit, I busted out because of a bad beat, which doesn't tell me anything. I'll try another buyin and see how it goes." You could lose a significant portion of your bankroll doing this, which is why you shouldn't do it. One of the functions of having a bankroll and rules is to absorb busting due to bad beats and negative variance.

Second of all, you are creating bad habits. When will it end? Right now you want to play out of your bankroll because it's taking too long to move up to the next level. It's always going to be like that! You're always gonna have to grind it out to try to increase your roll enough to move up. For example, the proper roll to play at NL25 is around $500. Say you have $150 right now and you're like, "Oh I'll just play it for a little while and see how I do", and then you luck out, win a few big pots, and actually get up to around the proper roll to play at NL25. So you're all happy and now you can play NL25 legitimately, right? So you play NL25 for a while, lose a little, win a little, and finally get your roll up to $650 after a while. But now the novelty is gone and it's going too slowly for you again. "Ah well, I have 13 buyins for NL50 and it worked before ... let's just give it a try ..."

Start a bad habit and it'll probably stick with you for the rest of your poker "career" until you bust and realize you shouldn't have done it.

If you do not have the discipline to play at the lower levels and grind it out following bankroll rules/suggestions, then you do not have the discipline you need to be successful at poker. Discipline is required in every single aspect of this game, and bankroll management is one of the biggest aspects of all. It's not even just the increased risk of busting your roll, it's the fact that it shows you lack certain discipline needed to be a successful poker player, especially for poker players relatively new to the game.

I’m playing limit, and sadly my $50 dollar buy in now only $13. At one point I was down to $3 but now through playing .2/.4 for the past few weeks I got to $10, and yesterday in made it to $13 playing .5/.10.

I was thinking about playing .5/.10 for a bit more and if I’m still crushing the competition, move up without the bankroll.

I have played multi-tables once before and got two playable hands instantly and it all went wrong.

Crushing the competition is one thing, but what happens when (and not 'if'), you get a terrible run of cards, and you're getting 2-3 outed every time you have a hand.

Answer: you go broke because you don't have the bankroll to support you through the tough times.

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Originally Posted by midas06

Crushing the competition is one thing, but what happens when (and not 'if'), you get a terrible run of cards, and you're getting 2-3 outed every time you have a hand.

Answer: you go broke because you don't have the bankroll to support you through the tough times.

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I hear you my friend. That’s how I ended up in this mess in the first place, continually playing out of my bankroll, thinking I was just about to turn the corner with the bad run, (it never happen).

Interesting thread.

It's funny because I've been trying to follow the bankroll advice on one site (where I probably didn't need to) and not on another (where perhaps I should).

I'm pretty chuffed with myself right now because I've just played my first micro-limit NLHE STT on Everest (0.04+0.01 oh, the pressure!).

I began playing on their 0+0 Limit STT last week and have now played 58 times and made myself $0.75 which was my target (15 buy-ins for their lowest 'real money' table).
I realise the advice is 15-20 buy-ins, but I can always play more on the free tables and scrape together another 25. In fact, right now, the only problem I see with playing those tables is not getting sucked into playing standards even worse than my own.

Anyway, I've just finished my first game. Managed to find myself in the last 4 with a measely 37 T$ (starting stacks 100 on Everest) with everyone else on >200. I managed to fight my way back up to 2nd place and pocketed $0.12 (less the buy-in) for my hour's work... now working on doubling my cash and move up to the $0.10 + $0.01.

Although I wonder if in a situation like this one can "fund" a step-up in limits by winning lower limits. I mean if I win 2 buy-ins per week to my target level (risk-free) then what does that do to my requirements? Or should I forget the free money and stick to one level?

On another track I've got the free $10 on Crazy Poker and Royal Vegas. The thing is that there the lowest SNG is 0.75 + 0.25, which obviously $10 does not properly cover.
Of course I technically have $20, it's just spread over two sites... would that make a difference? Can I treat it as 20 buy-ins at my current level (21, actually, I won one the other day) ? Or should I be trying to get into ring games?

It my seem silly to wonder about this when I've not put up a single cent of my own money at any time. But it'd be nice for me to be able to keep playing and reach new levels; and there is something of an investment in time here too :)

Id like to add that I personally follow the BR management advice to the letter. The thing is, for a lot of people a bankroll is not their poker "lifeline". A bankroll isnt just the amount of money you have in a pokersite + neteller. Its the amount of money you are prepared to put into poker. If you have a $120 bankroll which you want to make a break with at 10NL but you will put another $120 if you bust then actually your bankroll is $240 and you are easily rolled for 10NL.
Since you can always put in another $20 if you bust out at 10NL then it might be a way to skip 2NL if you are prepared to start at 2NL should it all go wrong.

I do agree very much with courtiebee about a lack of discipline being a potential problem later which is why i have decided to grind my way up from the bottom even if I can afford to put a little more of my personal money in to maybe move up to 25NL a little faster. I also find it very rewarding seeing my BR grow without me putting in any extra money.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Id like to add that I personally follow the BR management advice to the letter. The thing is, for a lot of people a bankroll is not their poker "lifeline". A bankroll isnt just the amount of money you have in a pokersite + neteller. Its the amount of money you are prepared to put into poker. If you have a $120 bankroll which you want to make a break with at 10NL but you will put another $120 if you bust then actually your bankroll is $240 and you are easily rolled for 10NL.
Since you can always put in another $20 if you bust out at 10NL then it might be a way to skip 2NL if you are prepared to start at 2NL should it all go wrong.

I do agree very much with courtiebee about a lack of discipline being a potential problem later which is why i have decided to grind my way up from the bottom even if I can afford to put a little more of my personal money in to maybe move up to 25NL a little faster. I also find it very rewarding seeing my BR grow without me putting in any extra money.

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exellen points

If you can create a br, a proper one of 150 or so, then do it. And learn to play. that is best. Dont make a half hearted attempt. either do it or not

Note: WTF!
midas agreed with me!
LOL

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Originally Posted by dvda

I’m playing limit, and sadly my $50 dollar buy in now only $13. At one point I was down to $3 but now through playing .2/.4 for the past few weeks I got to $10, and yesterday in made it to $13 playing .5/.10.

I was thinking about playing .5/.10 for a bit more and if I’m still crushing the competition, move up without the bankroll.

I have played multi-tables once before and got two playable hands instantly and it all went wrong.

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Don't feel too bad. I lost my first $50 at Party .5/1 limit with a bad run of sucking at poker. Then I did it a couple more times. Then I wised up, put in $500 and started bonus whoring, which helped me keep my head above water. If you cannot deposit more, you cannot play out of your bankroll. It's that simple. Take the time to build up $200-500 to properly bonus whore or save money from work or whatever and do it that way. Don't play out of what you can afford ever if you want to continue playing.

The problem with moving up to .5/.10...wait if it's limit you're probably ok. Limit people is 130 bbs ok for .5/.10?

Nope I checked, 300 bb for limit. Maybe try micro NL? I think you could move up quicker but you'd have to start at very small stakes.

Yea Id be even less likely to dodge the BR requirements at limit. Limit is way more swingy than NL. Its very easy to play a session perfectly and still finish down especially at small stakes where everyone calls you. Of course, when you do finally win a pot it will be HUGE but you have to dodge alot of suckouts first. Id stick to the BR management rules but if you want to take a chance then goodluck.

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

For example, the proper roll to play at NL25 is around $500.

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That's a tad conservative isn't it?

Unless you are still learning the fundamentals of the game, $300 should suffice, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

For example, the proper roll to play at NL25 is around $500.

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That's a tad conservative isn't it?

Unless you are still learning the fundamentals of the game, $300 should suffice, IMO.

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The proper roll to start NL25 at party is $500 because that gets you the maximum deposit bonus. I think you could get away with a little less if you were a good player but i still think $300 is a little low.

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Originally Posted by dvda

I’m playing limit, and sadly my $50 dollar buy in now only $13. At one point I was down to $3 but now through playing .2/.4 for the past few weeks I got to $10, and yesterday in made it to $13 playing .5/.10.

I was thinking about playing .5/.10 for a bit more and if I’m still crushing the competition, move up without the bankroll.

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You barely have one buyin for $10nl, you are just asking to go broke by playing those levels. If you went from $50 to $3 playing the proper levels, then what would make you think you could play higher? You asked what to do if you were still crushing the competition, but you are only up $3 at the .5/.10 after a day. You really should be developing your game so you can crush the competition at your proper level before moving up. Bad beats are going to happen, and with your bankroll, you cannot sustain them, if you want to improve you really have to play within your limits. If you get your BR back up to a reasonable amount (atleast 10 buyins) and have been consistently beating your levels, maybe then it would be time to move up, but really, not at 1.3x the buyin. Im no expert, and I hope this post doesnt come off wrong, but from personal experience I know bankroll management is important to improve, by playing out of your levels you are really just hurting yourself.

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Originally Posted by dvda

I have played multi-tables once before and got two playable hands instantly and it all went wrong.

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Save the multi-tabling for when you have a bigger bankroll.

Right now I only play Limit Hold’em, so the advice on NL is helpful for future reference when I add NL to my game but right now LHE is my game and I’m sticking to it.


I gave playing two tables a shot last night partly because of the advise post here, but mostly because in hunting down a table to play I come across one table with a very lucky donkey who was calling every flop and was going too far with weak hands but lucking out big time, and the second table 4+ players were calling the flop every time. I decide to play both and it worked out.

I had two playable hands at the same time and I think if I had just been playing one table I would have been able to get extra bets out of the opponents.

Given the correct conditions I’ll try playing two tables again.

I know when you should not follow BR management wisdom....
Do so whenever you want to undervalue online cash and pay reload fees to Firepay to start over again and you want to Gamb00l! Or I guess one table for one buying for a set amount of time on a weekend when more fish are out. :D

whats the minimum BR you'd take to party 100NL?

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

For example, the proper roll to play at NL25 is around $500.

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That's a tad conservative isn't it?

Unless you are still learning the fundamentals of the game, $300 should suffice, IMO.

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There is nothing wrong with being conservative when it comes to your bankroll.

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

There is nothing wrong with being conservative when it comes to your bankroll.

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Agreed. Much better to play it safe. Added benefit is by following BR guidlines and moving up through various limits you are improving and providing proof that you can beat those levels, hopefully gaining new skills.

If you have the discipline, I agree with the suggestion to casino whore - a great way to jump start your BR. Then you should be in good shape to bonus whore which also gives you a cushion against the inevitable variance.

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Originally Posted by Toe

whats the minimum BR you'd take to party 100NL?

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Since I know I can pwn it, or drop to 5nl if I run bad, I'll play with 80 - 100$.

If I was newish to poker I'd like $200.

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

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Originally Posted by Toe

whats the minimum BR you'd take to party 100NL?

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Since I know I can pwn it, or drop to 5nl if I run bad, I'll play with 80 - 100$.

If I was newish to poker I'd like $200.

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Plus one zero and it works for NL100. This answer was clearly aimed at the NL10.

Oh sorry, my bad.
I don't play with less then 2k$. Variance gets worse as you move up through the levels.

And dvda, the best advice I think I can give you is, play 2nl on stars or whatever. You'll be ages going nowhere with micro limit.

Sounds good. I'm doing NL25 and NL50 right now. $2000 sounds about right to move up.

Edit: Also I floundered forever at limit tables. My education improved quickly when I tried out the low stakes NL.

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Originally Posted by Toe

whats the minimum BR you'd take to party 100NL?

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multiply the buy in by 20 and thats around the BR you want
so around 2000 for 100NL

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=4971

I confess to not reading all the responses here. After about 10, I decided to just post my response to the initial question.

Given the stakes you are playing in limit poker, and also given you know you can crush these games, there is no reason to use the typical BR management guidelines. .25/.50 and lower limit stakes are full of absolutely horrible players. .10/.20 and lower are worse than horrible. It looks like the lowest stakes you are playing are .02/.04. 100 BB here is only $4, so I will assume it is no big deal for you to deposit another $4 if you bust. If you can't afford $4 you have no business playing poker.

My reccomendation is to move up if you have 50 BB for the next stake, and to move down if you get down to <75BB for the lower stake. For example, you have $10.00 in your account, you should play .10/.20 because you have 50BB. If you drop down to $7.50 (75 BB at .05/.10), you should stop playing .10/.20 and move down to the .05/.10 game. You may go back and forth for a week or 2, but given the horrible competition, eventually you will break the bubble and finally get your 300BB for .50/1.00.

You really shouldn't move up past .25/.50 without 2-300BB. The games get much tougher then. The goal here is to take risks until you get to .25/.50 and then build your roll for the higher stakes there. I would also recommend staying at .25/.50 until you can beat it for at least 4BB/100 over 10k+ hands. If you can't do that, you might as well stay there til you can because you won't get a better hourly rate at higher stakes.

If you are willing to take advice from someone who has yet to play an online poker game for real money, but who knows something about bankroll management from his stock trading days, I have a few observations to offer.

(1) Ignoring bankroll management makes as much sense to me as ignoring pot odds.

(2) The bankroll management strategies offered here are time tested by many players. They work.

(3) There are more aggressive bank roll strategies and one based on the Kelley Percentage which is also time tested by many gamblers and stock traders. It works too.

The Kelley Percentage calculates the optimum buy-in as a percentage of your bankroll based on how often you win or lose. It is:

Kelly % = W - (1-W)/R where:

* Kelly % = percentage of capital to be put into a single game
* W = Historical winning percentage of a (wins/games played)
* R = Historical Average Win/Loss ratio (wins/losses)

Practically, you ought be be more conservative as bigger buy-ins mean tougher competition.

It is totally objective, it allows you to use more aggressive bankroll management if you are actually winning and scale back if you start losing.



I would also use only the last 100 (1000 ?) games to compute W and R to track an increase (or decrease) in poker skill.

Anyway, I would love to hear from people who actually play poker as I intend to use this strategy when I actually manage to fund my account and have enough games to calculate W and R. So please don't hesitate to tell me I'm nuts if you think so.

How does the Kelley Percentage compare to the actual levels you all are actually playing at?

edit: dont worry im 5 hours too late....

Gak, I screwed up the formula!

The right formula is:

Kelly % = W - (1-W)/R where:

* Kelly % = percentage of capital to be put into a single game
* W = Historical winning percentage of a (wins/games played)
* R = Historical Average Win/Loss ratio

R is
average (take-home - buyin) in winning games
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average(buyin - take-home) in losing games.

This takes into account how much you win and how much you lose, which makes much more sense!

So if you win half the time, take home $10 more than your buy-in when you win and take home $5 less than your buy-in when you lose

K% = .5 - (1-.5)/(10/5) = 25%

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

I disagree with the people who say that it's okay.

If you really want to play higher, deposit more money. If you can't, then you have to grind it out.

First of all, if you do "move up" thinking that you'll move right back down if "testing the waters" is unsuccessful and then you bust due to a bad beat, was that really "testing the waters"? You're gonna be like, "dammit, I busted out because of a bad beat, which doesn't tell me anything. I'll try another buyin and see how it goes." You could lose a significant portion of your bankroll doing this, which is why you shouldn't do it. One of the functions of having a bankroll and rules is to absorb busting due to bad beats and negative variance.

Second of all, you are creating bad habits. When will it end? Right now you want to play out of your bankroll because it's taking too long to move up to the next level. It's always going to be like that! You're always gonna have to grind it out to try to increase your roll enough to move up. For example, the proper roll to play at NL25 is around $500. Say you have $150 right now and you're like, "Oh I'll just play it for a little while and see how I do", and then you luck out, win a few big pots, and actually get up to around the proper roll to play at NL25. So you're all happy and now you can play NL25 legitimately, right? So you play NL25 for a while, lose a little, win a little, and finally get your roll up to $650 after a while. But now the novelty is gone and it's going too slowly for you again. "Ah well, I have 13 buyins for NL50 and it worked before ... let's just give it a try ..."

Start a bad habit and it'll probably stick with you for the rest of your poker "career" until you bust and realize you shouldn't have done it.

If you do not have the discipline to play at the lower levels and grind it out following bankroll rules/suggestions, then you do not have the discipline you need to be successful at poker. Discipline is required in every single aspect of this game, and bankroll management is one of the biggest aspects of all. It's not even just the increased risk of busting your roll, it's the fact that it shows you lack certain discipline needed to be a successful poker player, especially for poker players relatively new to the game.

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good post

This is exactly where i go wrong.