Semi-boring hand. Line check.

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03-07-2006, 09:40 PM
dsaxton

Semi-boring hand. Line check.

Other guy just joined the table, so no reads. Idea was to represent the straight draw against his likely overpair, induce a big turn bet and set up a fake river bluff. The river was scary for him, but he called anyways. Good thinking / line?

***** Hand History for Game 3690361626 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, March 08, 00:34:24 ET 2006
Table Plow Share (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: DRKG05 ( $392.80 )
Seat 4: hg123456 ( $488.90 )
Seat 5: danielsaxton ( $605.73 )
Seat 6: bckimsy13 ( $682.12 )
Seat 3: Flying_dmnd ( $326.30 )
Seat 1: joeybringsit ( $392 )
joeybringsit posts small blind [$2].
DRKG05 posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to danielsaxton [ 7s 7d ]
>You have options at Table 97043 (No DP) Table!.
Flying_dmnd calls [$4].
hg123456 raises [$15].
danielsaxton calls [$15].
bckimsy13 folds.
joeybringsit folds.
DRKG05 calls [$11].
>You have options at Table 96049 Table!.
Flying_dmnd calls [$11].
>You have options at Legacy Two (No DP) Table!.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 6c, 5d ]
>You have options at Table 97043 (No DP) Table!.
DRKG05 checks.
Flying_dmnd checks.
>You have options at Legacy Two (No DP) Table!.
hg123456 bets [$40].
danielsaxton calls [$40].
DRKG05 folds.
>You have options at Table 96049 Table!.
Flying_dmnd folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
>You have options at Legacy Two (No DP) Table!.
hg123456 bets [$70].
danielsaxton calls [$70].
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
>You have options at Table 97043 (No DP) Table!.
hg123456 bets [$141.10].
>You have options at Legacy Two (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 97043 (No DP) Table!.
danielsaxton is all-In [$480.73]
hg123456 is all-In [$222.80]
03-08-2006, 12:18 AM
aislephive

Lately I've been playing sets and other huge hands fast against people who I put on overpairs, especially on very scary flops where I might lose all my action if a scare card hits the turn. I would have raised this flop for sure before a straight card hit the board and scared him off. I think if you raise that flop that he three bets here 90 percent of the time and you can get it all in on this flop.
03-08-2006, 12:51 AM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Lately I've been playing sets and other huge hands fast against people who I put on overpairs, especially on very scary flops where I might lose all my action if a scare card hits the turn. I would have raised this flop for sure before a straight card hit the board and scared him off. I think if you raise that flop that he three bets here 90 percent of the time and you can get it all in on this flop.

I almost always do this, but I'm working on randomizing my play to prevent easy readability. If you never slow-play strong hands, your opponents can accurately read you as weak when you aren't showing strength, which can translate into a decisive edge for them.

I'm not assuming he's a good player, in fact he probably isn't, but a decent player would put on the breaks here if I raised his bet. When he makes this strong bet into several players, it's an obvious indication of an overpair, and he should be aware that I know this, so when I raise, I'm basically telling him I flopped at least two pair, unless he thinks I'm capable of bluffing in these spots. In a sense, a raise may kill my action just as much as a scary turn card. Here the idea is that I don't want him to know he's behind, instead I want him to make a large, frantic bet trying to protect his hand on this draw-heavy board, one which will completely commit his stack to the hand.
03-08-2006, 01:31 AM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Lately I've been playing sets and other huge hands fast against people who I put on overpairs, especially on very scary flops where I might lose all my action if a scare card hits the turn. I would have raised this flop for sure before a straight card hit the board and scared him off. I think if you raise that flop that he three bets here 90 percent of the time and you can get it all in on this flop.

I almost always do this, but I'm working on randomizing my play to prevent easy readability. If you never slow-play strong hands, your opponents can accurately read you as weak when you aren't showing strength, which can translate into a decisive edge for them.

I'm not assuming he's a good player, in fact he probably isn't, but a decent player would put on the breaks here if I raised his bet. When he makes this strong bet into several players, it's an obvious indication of an overpair, and he should be aware that I know this, so when I raise, I'm basically telling him I flopped at least two pair, unless he thinks I'm capable of bluffing in these spots. In a sense, a raise may kill my action just as much as a scary turn card. Here the idea is that I don't want him to know he's behind, instead I want him to make a large, frantic bet trying to protect his hand on this draw-heavy board, one which will completely commit his stack to the hand.

Have you played with this player a lot? I don't really think he has a read on you that you "never" slowplay, so I wouldn't be worried about him thinking that. Slowplaying is sometimes right given the situation, but usually it's best to be aggressive. People almost never put you on a big hand when you play it fast. Judging by the way he played the hand I wouldn't consider him to be a very strong player, somebody who has a lot of trouble laying down TPTK and overpairs.

It's an interesting point to let him commit himself to the pot by betting big to chase out the draws, but a good player will emphasize pot-control on this board and check-call the turn/river.
03-08-2006, 03:10 AM
bdawg56kg

Dsaxton, would you really chase the idiot-end of the straight in this situation? While you are most likely drawing live, you have to assume you don't have a lot of implied odds if you hit, even if you have a hand like pair + OESD. I like your line if villian has been firing 2nd and 3rd barrells often, but otherwise I think raising the flop would be best, simply because in general a flop raise gets less credibility than a turn or river raise. Unless he's a donk (which he probably was), it's going to be tough to stack him on this board with just an overpair. Mixing up your play is good though, so in that sense I like it.
03-08-2006, 10:00 AM
r8ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Have you played with this player a lot? I don't really think he has a read on you that you "never" slowplay, so I wouldn't be worried about him thinking that.

He's slowplaying for the rest of the table - not to throw off this guy that just sat down. Mixing it up is good and if you put this guy on an overpair then this may be a good spot. If no other straight makers come out, then overpairs will usually force the action for you. If you reraise him big on the flop or turn I think you may kill your action as he has to suspect a set or straight (may not matter if he's a donk). Unless this guy has you beat, he's foolish.
03-08-2006, 10:57 AM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Have you played with this player a lot? I don't really think he has a read on you that you "never" slowplay, so I wouldn't be worried about him thinking that.

He's slowplaying for the rest of the table - not to throw off this guy that just sat down. Mixing it up is good and if you put this guy on an overpair then this may be a good spot. If no other straight makers come out, then overpairs will usually force the action for you. If you reraise him big on the flop or turn I think you may kill your action as he has to suspect a set or straight (may not matter if he's a donk). Unless this guy has you beat, he's foolish.

Mixing it up is fine; optimal even. But I don't think the table nessicarily has pegged him as somebody who never slowplays, so there is no need to go out of your way to slowplay for that reason alone. I know that I'm usually a lot more worried about a smooth call by Hero than I am a reraise. I'm not saying calling is a bad play, but raising is a better play in my opinion. In a situation like this it's very important to try and get all of his chips in on the river.

Furthermore, what do you think the guy with KK puts us on after we smooth call the flop? It would be very odd to call with just a straight draw on that board since you would only be using one of your hole-cards to make a straight, and it's almost never a good idea to chase a straight draw in that situation. And if he thinks we're a decent player then he won't put us on an 8, but at least two pair. As played Villian should be very suspicious of your flat calls on the flop and turn, but if you raise he'll likely put you on a weaker hand like maybe 99 or TT. I don't think it mattered if you raised the flop in this case since I don't think he was getting away from KK there anyways.
03-08-2006, 11:45 AM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Dsaxton, would you really chase the idiot-end of the straight in this situation? While you are most likely drawing live, you have to assume you don't have a lot of implied odds if you hit, even if you have a hand like pair + OESD. I like your line if villian has been firing 2nd and 3rd barrells often, but otherwise I think raising the flop would be best, simply because in general a flop raise gets less credibility than a turn or river raise. Unless he's a donk (which he probably was), it's going to be tough to stack him on this board with just an overpair. Mixing up your play is good though, so in that sense I like it.

Look at the hand again. I had top set, I wasn't on a draw.
03-08-2006, 12:36 PM
gabe

Re: Semi-boring hand. Line check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Idea was to represent the straight draw against his likely overpair, induce a big turn bet and set up a fake river bluff.

thats a cool idea and everything, but why not just get all the money in on the flop? don't let a scare card come and kill your action.

you lose alot of value by not building pot on the flop.
03-08-2006, 02:10 PM
pvfox

a call on the flop isn't too bad a line here as there are two players to act after you. one of them may put in a raise with an overpair (TT, JJ etc.) or a straight draw and the original raiser might then put in a re-raise allowing you to push hard with probably the best hand.
i would get more aggressive on the turn as there are now flush draw possibilities. if the third club hits on the river, it may slow your opp. down if you put in a big raise.
03-08-2006, 02:27 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

I think raising the flop would be best, simply because in general a flop raise gets less credibility than a turn or river raise.

This is very true, but it has more to do with what the opponent is holding, and whether they're aggressive enough to keep firing with the bad end of the range. You basically have to decide at some point whether the opponent is likely to have a real hand. If their range is weak, and they often go too far, I might remain passive until later streets.

Ideally, in this spot I DO NOT want the board coordinating if I remain passive to the aggressor. The 3 on the end is bad in my book. I may raise the turn here considering the villains lingering confidence.
03-08-2006, 02:52 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvfox

a call on the flop isn't too bad a line here as there are two players to act after you. one of them may put in a raise with an overpair (TT, JJ etc.) or a straight draw and the original raiser might then put in a re-raise allowing you to push hard with probably the best hand.
i would get more aggressive on the turn as there are now flush draw possibilities. if the third club hits on the river, it may slow your opp. down if you put in a big raise.

Not sure how a flush draw on the turn is a concern here.
03-08-2006, 11:02 PM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Dsaxton, would you really chase the idiot-end of the straight in this situation? While you are most likely drawing live, you have to assume you don't have a lot of implied odds if you hit, even if you have a hand like pair + OESD. I like your line if villian has been firing 2nd and 3rd barrells often, but otherwise I think raising the flop would be best, simply because in general a flop raise gets less credibility than a turn or river raise. Unless he's a donk (which he probably was), it's going to be tough to stack him on this board with just an overpair. Mixing up your play is good though, so in that sense I like it.

Look at the hand again. I had top set, I wasn't on a draw.

Yeah but you were repping a draw. That was my point. So I guess if you wanted it to look like a bad bluff then it probably was a good play since not a lot of players will call 2 large bets just drawing to the idiot-end of the straight and then going crazy on the river to try to represent it. Honestly I think you just got lucky and ran into a fish.

But now that the table has seen you take this line with a set, I am curious would you ever play a draw by cold-calling the flop and turn, when it's quite obvious you are against an overpair? In other words, what does it mean (other than slowplay) when you cold-call 2 streets?
03-09-2006, 02:58 AM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Dsaxton, would you really chase the idiot-end of the straight in this situation? While you are most likely drawing live, you have to assume you don't have a lot of implied odds if you hit, even if you have a hand like pair + OESD. I like your line if villian has been firing 2nd and 3rd barrells often, but otherwise I think raising the flop would be best, simply because in general a flop raise gets less credibility than a turn or river raise. Unless he's a donk (which he probably was), it's going to be tough to stack him on this board with just an overpair. Mixing up your play is good though, so in that sense I like it.

Look at the hand again. I had top set, I wasn't on a draw.

Yeah but you were repping a draw. That was my point. So I guess if you wanted it to look like a bad bluff then it probably was a good play since not a lot of players will call 2 large bets just drawing to the idiot-end of the straight and then going crazy on the river to try to represent it. Honestly I think you just got lucky and ran into a fish.

But now that the table has seen you take this line with a set, I am curious would you ever play a draw by cold-calling the flop and turn, when it's quite obvious you are against an overpair? In other words, what does it mean (other than slowplay) when you cold-call 2 streets?

Well, clearly it wasn't my intention to represent a straight. I wanted to represent a straight draw and hope the straight didn't come. Unfortunately it did, but I knew my hand was good anyways, so I moved all-in and hoped he called.

I wasn't really slow-playing for this table, more just getting in the habit of randomly mixing up play.
03-09-2006, 02:48 PM
dsaxton

Re: Semi-boring hand. Line check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Idea was to represent the straight draw against his likely overpair, induce a big turn bet and set up a fake river bluff.

thats a cool idea and everything, but why not just get all the money in on the flop? don't let a scare card come and kill your action.

you lose alot of value by not building pot on the flop.

It's probably best if you read previous comments before responding. I already talked about this. And the idea that I can "just get all the money in on the flop" is extremely simple-minded. You do realize building a big pot requires cooperation from an opponent, right?
03-09-2006, 02:53 PM
aislephive

Re: Semi-boring hand. Line check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Idea was to represent the straight draw against his likely overpair, induce a big turn bet and set up a fake river bluff.

thats a cool idea and everything, but why not just get all the money in on the flop? don't let a scare card come and kill your action.

you lose alot of value by not building pot on the flop.

It's probably best if you read previous comments before responding. I already talked about this. And the idea that I can "just get all the money in on the flop" is extremely simple-minded. You do realize building a big pot requires cooperation from an opponent, right?

Did you see his river play? He is more than willing to go broke here, the only reason he didn't get broke sooner was because you didn't raise him.