QQ line check - A on flop

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03-16-2006, 03:44 PM
martindcx1e

QQ line check - A on flop

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($10)
Hero ($10.50)
UTG+1 ($38.89)
MP1 ($2.57)
MP2 ($7.84)
CO ($4)
Button ($3.76)
SB ($6.32)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q:spade:, Q:club:.
Hero raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.20, 5 folds.

Flop: ($0.47) 7:club:, A:heart:, J:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05.

Turn: ($0.57) 7:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05.

River: ($0.67) 5:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: $0.67
03-16-2006, 04:09 PM
dpe8598

Whats the point of this post. Either this guy is holding an ace and he is a super weak passive player or he is holding a lower pocket pair and screaming for you to not raise him. Either way this line of betting is stupid. At the very least call him down and consider raising him on flop to define his hand.
03-16-2006, 04:16 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Consider raising him on flop to define his hand.

Nahhh....
03-16-2006, 04:19 PM
dpe8598

Disagree, raising after the flop to define the hand is a heckavu lot better than calling him down and then having to make a choise on a half pot to pot sized bet on the river.
03-16-2006, 04:26 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Disagree, raising after the flop to define the hand is a heckavu lot better than calling him down and then having to make a choise on a half pot to pot sized bet on the river.

...and he calls. Now what? Pot just got bigger and your hand still sucks but just might be good.

I've thought about this a lot and pretty much came to the conclusion to just ignore these stupid bets unless I'm looking at the broader picture across several streets/hands. Raise if I was going to bet, otherwise call. I'll even call here with hopeless hands since folding is a meta-game disaster. If you want to value-bet me for 1bb on every street, you're certainly not getting the best of me by enough of a margin for me to really care.
03-16-2006, 04:46 PM
BankItDrew

Looks standard on the flop.

Turn looks weak and looks like you are scared of the ace, instead throw out a 1/3 bet. If villain calls, check the river.

If villain calls with a worse hand than yours, he'll be looking for a cheap showdown as well. If villain calls with an ace, I think he'll value the river for you which will keep your losses to a minimum.

If villain raises your 1/3 pot sized bet, he's representing better than a pair of aces = fold (call pending strong read).

Never stay involved in a pot getting large quickly with a pair under the high card. But for gods sake, don't beg for a raise on the turn.
03-16-2006, 04:48 PM
martindcx1e

Is this the type of situation where you allow the opponent to lead the betting so he will put money into the pot when behind? And if he is behind he will just fold to any aggression. Is this correct thinking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

But for gods sake, don't beg for a raise on the turn.

How was I begging for a raise?
03-16-2006, 05:02 PM
BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Is this the type of situation where you allow the opponent to lead the betting so he will put money into the pot when behind? And if he is behind he will just fold to any aggression. Is this correct thinking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

But for gods sake, don't beg for a raise on the turn.

How was I begging for a raise?

If he has a worse hand than you, you can be bluffed. Put him to the difficult decisions, not the other way around.

The turn bet is begging for a raise because it's a min bet. Min bets are known as "raise me so that I can fold to your aggression," bets. Or "raise me so that I can build the pot for my monster," bets. You don't have a monster, but you don't have a weak hand, so bet in between.
03-16-2006, 05:45 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If he has a worse hand than you, you can be bluffed. Put him to the difficult decisions, not the other way around.

I don't see cause to put anyone to any decisions here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

The turn bet is begging for a raise because it's a min bet. Min bets are known as "raise me so that I can fold to your aggression," bets. Or "raise me so that I can build the pot for my monster," bets.

..or raise me because I have a weak Ace and am too stupid to fold. Seen that one at 100NL too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

You don't have a monster, but you don't have a weak hand, so bet in between.

Information leakage.
03-16-2006, 06:07 PM
BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If he has a worse hand than you, you can be bluffed. Put him to the difficult decisions, not the other way around.

I don't see cause to put anyone to any decisions here.

Why shouldn't we put anyone to difficult decisions at anytime?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

You don't have a monster, but you don't have a weak hand, so bet in between.

Information leakage.

My probe bets hoping for a raise are quite often this size. A call or raise responding to this size gives a lot of info. A raise, I'm folding. A call, I'm c/c or c/b/folding the river. Besides, isn't betting the most average bet, releasing the least amount of information a bet could possibly provide?
03-16-2006, 06:12 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

Why shouldn't we put anyone to difficult decisions at anytime?

Because this guy is likely too stupid to know what a difficult decision is?
Because we kinda would like an almost free showdown here?
Because raising hands like this into a calling station is just spraying chips. You'll never really know where you're at and I don't think there is an edge to push here.
Because when/if you do take one away from him with air you'll have more credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

My probe bets hoping for a raise are quite often this size. A call or raise responding to this size gives a lot of info. A raise, I'm folding. A call, I'm c/c or c/b/folding the river.

The fact you are making a probe bet is giving information about your hand.
03-16-2006, 06:12 PM
Robert

Hero played this fine without a read.

Betting/raising in order to define opps hand is stupid in situations like these - this has been discussed several times over before.
03-16-2006, 11:34 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

The turn bet is begging for a raise because it's a min bet. Min bets are known as "raise me so that I can fold to your aggression," bets. Or "raise me so that I can build the pot for my monster," bets. You don't have a monster, but you don't have a weak hand, so bet in between.

I did not bet the turn. I called the minbet.
03-17-2006, 01:52 PM
BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

The turn bet is begging for a raise because it's a min bet. Min bets are known as "raise me so that I can fold to your aggression," bets. Or "raise me so that I can build the pot for my monster," bets. You don't have a monster, but you don't have a weak hand, so bet in between.

I did not bet the turn. I called the minbet.

Sorry, I misread.