Learning my lesson

Still struggling with 10NL. Up and down, but a couple of these downs are serious.

I'm trying to learn my lesson from these big losses. Am I on the right track?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($19.71)
BB ($8.95)
UTG ($19.71)
UTG+1 ($16.91)
UTG+2 ($10.55)
MP1 ($15.16)
MP2 ($4.45)
MP3 ($10.75)
CO ($13.13)
Hero ($12.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.6, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP2 folds, CO calls $0.50.

Flop: ($2.05) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Should bet here, right? Last position, two overs, nut-flush draw? A good 50% of pot doesn't disuade the draw hands necessarily, but should get PP that didn't hit out and overcards?

Turn: ($2.05) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, UTG+2 folds.

CO is a bit of a loose-passive player. But I had real trouble putting them on a hand. Probably would guess TPWK or something.

River: ($3.55) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
CO bets $3, Hero raises to $6, CO calls $8.78 (All-In), Hero calls $5 (All-In).

Right. Donkish play here. The a-flush is not the nuts on a paired board. Should have just called the original bet. Or do I fold here?

Final Pot: $26.33

Results in white below:
CO has 9c 9d (four of a kind, nines).
Hero has As Ks (flush, ace high).
Outcome: CO wins $26.32.

Second hand was in many ways worse. (How could that be? I hear you cry).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($10.55)
CO ($10.30)
Button ($2.35)
SB ($8.63)
BB ($10.10)
UTG ($14.75)
UTG+1 ($9.65)
UTG+2 ($1.35)
MP1 ($14.49)
Hero ($14.87)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.15. SB posts a blind of $0.05. MP1 posts a blind of $0.15.
3 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero raises to $0.3, MP3 calls $0.30, 1 fold, Button calls $0.30, SB (poster) calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 folds.

Too many seeing this flop, unusually bold for this table.

Flop: ($1.60) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets $1.01, Hero calls $1.01, MP3 calls $1.01, Button calls $1.01.

Horrible, horrible flop. Raise here? Find out if I'm up against a made hand? SB is tight-passive should listen here.

Turn: ($5.64) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
SB calls $7.32 (All-In), Hero calls $7.32, MP3 folds, Button calls $1.04 (All-In).

Donk call, right?

River: ($21.32) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $21.32

Results in white below:
SB has Jh As (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ah Ac (one pair, aces).
Button has 4s Jd (high card, king).
Outcome: SB wins $21.32.

Hand 1: I like to raise on that flop these days, mainly b/c of the flush draw. It kinda "masks" that you have a draw, on top of here being a valid c-bet. I'd probably call on the river. I actually think I'm ahead here (he's unlikely to put you on a flush with your pfr) but if you reraise, a call, or worse, a push that you're gonna be calling will have your flush beat.

Hand 2: I have to agree that it was bad, although I understand your play.. laying down aces is so hard, you practically have to prepare yourself for it before you play the hand otherwise you're gonna put your stack on the line regardless. So anyway, bit of a weak raise preflop there, on the flop a call is understandable, but to call an all-in on the turn.. do you really think he's not going to have overpair beat? Without a "donk read" this should be an easy lay-down, but I think you know :)

Only mistake I can see in second hand was the min-raise pre-flop. Going to sound like a broken record but at these stakes that isn't going to thin the field or push out weak draw hands. I'd say a raid to at least $0.60 or $0.80 here would be more appropriate given what I've seen at PP at these levels so far. Having said that, I don't think even that would have gotten at AJo though.

For the first hand, before reading the results I was thinking a full-house with 9Ts as the holecards and probably would have been my read at the turn. He seemed to like the 9 hitting the board and bet a decent amount so he wasn't afraid of someone having a 10 so, given he stayed in against a decent preflop raise, he most likley went with 9T and was now betting his two pair. Of course I was wrong and he was betting his set but given the play till then I have to be thinking a fullhouse at the river. Having said that, I'm probably paying off quads or a full house with the nut flush.

Hand#1: Bet the flop, there is a good chance yo uare ahead, and you have overs+draw. On the river it is really read dependant, he could have played a flush, or even trips the same way.

Hand#2: Your main reason was raising too little preflop, you want to thin the field to 1, possibly 2 players, and you are not going to do that with a minraise, espcially not when there are 2 BB posted.
With 4 people seeing the flop someone must have hit something. On the flop you should either raise or fold (proably raise) and on the turn you have to fold to the push, if he pushes when 4 people call he has a good hand

Hand 1 I bet that flop because it has been checked to me and its fairly likely I can take it down + I have lots of outs otherwise. If they call I probably get a free river card. On the river I make that raise too. Still plenty of hands that will pay you off (i.e. trips). 9T isnt that unlikely so be careful but I still think it is +EV to value raise.

Hand 2 I might fold that flop. There are alot of ways he can have a straight / 2 pair / set and hes betting into you. That probably means he has something (and on this board its better than AA if he does). You are probably drawing to a split pot anyway if you hit the straight and an A would really suck.
You really need to raise mroe preflop here. 3x just wont cut it at these stakes.

Anosmic, I was at the table during that first hand. My heart just sank when (s)he showed the quad 9s. I'm always rooting for names I recoginze from FTR (when I'm not in the hand :wink: ).

I made more than my share of donkey calls yesterday myself... but the worst was when I accidentally typed $5 bet instead of $.50. Of course, the other guy had AA...

Anosmic, I'd have thrown out a 1/3-1/2 size bet on the flop. Noone seems to have shown interest, and if they come back strong you can easily fold. Also, if they do just call, it'll let you make more if your card hits on the river. I honestly thought the guy had 9Ts on the river. In real life, I'd have either called his bet or folded. In the limited about of time I spent at $10NL, I don't see people go all in without a very strong hand.

Hand 2: Why was the BB .15? Anyways, I'd have raised it to .40 (I doubt it would have mattered much). If your read on the SB is tight-passive, I have to fold that flop. The other 3 people calling behind, makes the fold on the turn automatic.

ElKrem: That was you on Pary yesterday? Wish you identified yourself. I seem to remember you having some brutal swings for the limited time I was at your table.

Yeah, that was me. That particular table was... unfortunate. Worst session ever, actually, going by net loss. KK was like the kiss of death for me. Something like -$34. Ah well, easily absorbable loss, and I've already made a good chunk of it back. Some of the other tables were being kinder to me ;)

I shall henceforth refer to April 30, 2006 as STOP OVERVALUING YOUR OVERPAIR, JACKASS Day.

It is absolutely correct to bet the flop in hand 1. AK suited with an undercard board with a flush draw is an excellent hand, and the semi-bluff/continuation bet here is crucial to getting the most out of this hand. Throw out a 2/3-pot sized bet and be happy to take it down and be nearly as happy to be called.

Hand 2, as others have said, you made a big mistake by not raising a lot more preflop. Once that flop falls, 4-way, you should seriously be considering folding. 3 broadways with 2 of a suit is the worst flop for AA. And the fact that SB, first to act put out a decent sized bet into 3 opponents on such a scary flop should tell you that most likely the worst hand he has is 2pair. If you are going to play, you have to raise to define the hand. If called by either of the 2 yet to act, or reraised, you should have little confidence of having the best hand here. Also consider that the cards that improve your hand most likely improve your opponent's hand to beat or tie you. If a J falls, you only tie another Ace, and if an Ace falls, likely someone just made a straight.

When all the money goes in on a board like this, they guy with Aces is usually the one left going to the cashier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yorib

Anosmic, I'd have thrown out a 1/3-1/2 size bet on the flop.

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2/3 - 3/4 pot and I play for stacks if anyone plays back at me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yorib

In the limited about of time I spent at $10NL, I don't see people go all in without a very strong hand.

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*cackle*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElKrem

Yeah, that was me. That particular table was... unfortunate. Worst session ever, actually, going by net loss. KK was like the kiss of death for me. Something like -$34. Ah well, easily absorbable loss, and I've already made a good chunk of it back. Some of the other tables were being kinder to me ;)

I shall henceforth refer to April 30, 2006 as STOP OVERVALUING YOUR OVERPAIR, JACKASS Day.

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Didn't spot you there! Will have to pay more attention and put you on "he's read FTR he's probably not called a 5xbb pfr with 72o.." category :)

BTW, is SOYO,J-Day going to be an International Holiday or what? Will there be special cards? Hallmark get enough off me as it is...

Quote:

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In the limited about of time I spent at $10NL, I don't see people go all in without a very strong hand.

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The problem isn't the size of the hand it's what they value as a "very strong hand". I've had all-ins against me with 2pair on a flush board, or even Ax all-in on a AQJTx board, with 4 callers on all 4 tables, every night.

Quote:

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Didn't spot you there! Will have to pay more attention and put you on "he's read FTR he's probably not called a 5xbb pfr with 72o.." category

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No, but I'll check it from the BB.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($24.89)
Villain ($5.46)
MP1 ($6.37)
MP2 ($16.34)
MP3 ($25.59)
CO ($4.50)
Button ($4.85)
SB ($13.40)
Hero ($10)
UTG ($21.11)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Villain calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.65) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.49, Villain raises to $1.05, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls $1.05, UTG+1 calls $0.56.

Turn: ($3.80) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, Villain bets $2, Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 folds, Villain calls $2.

River: ($11.80) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.4, Villain calls $0.31 (All-In).

Final Pot: $12.51

Results in white below:
Hero has 7h 2s (full house, twos full of sevens).
Villain has Ac Td (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $12.50.

Honestly, I was a little worried about Villain having limped A2...

Quote:

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BTW, is SOYO,J-Day going to be an International Holiday or what? Will there be special cards? Hallmark get enough off me as it is...

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Promotional items will include long, pointy ears, buck teeth, and a pinnable tail. :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yorib

Anosmic, I'd have thrown out a 1/3-1/2 size bet on the flop.

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2/3 - 3/4 pot and I play for stacks if anyone plays back at me.

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yep. I'm betting the flop as if I have the best hand and 3 betting it all in if someone raises back

and a min raise pre flop with 2 blinds posted and an inability to fold (or even raise) AA is an excellent way to guarantee getting stacked

Fnord: Let me be the first to admit I look forward to the day when I'm right as often as I'm wrong, to wit ($25NL, but the point is the same).

**** Hand History for Game 4169886554 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, May 03, 00:06:38 ET 2006
Table Pixie Dust (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: STINGERXX ( $30.63 )
Seat 3: keystone34 ( $65.44 )
Seat 4: Jay_1412 ( $24.74 )
Seat 6: wezvidz ( $24.05 )
Seat 7: OneOfaKind_2 ( $5.10 )
Seat 8: dennisa ( $21.50 )
Seat 9: yorib ( $25 )
Seat 1: rf187 ( $3 )
Seat 5: Cad00 ( $9.75 )
Seat 10: ironman59 ( $5 )
rf187 posts small blind [$0.10].
STINGERXX posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to yorib [ Jh Ad ]
keystone34 folds.
Jay_1412 folds.
Cad00 raises [$0.75].
wezvidz folds.
OneOfaKind_2 folds.
dennisa folds.
yorib calls [$0.75].
rf187 folds.
STINGERXX folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, Qd, 3c ]
Cad00 bets [$1].
yorib calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
Cad00 bets [$1.50].
yorib calls [$1.50].
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Cad00 is all-In [$6.50]
yorib calls [$6.50].
Cad00 shows [ Kc, 6c ] a pair of queens.
yorib shows [ Jh, Ad ] two pairs, aces and queens.
yorib wins $18.90 from the main pot with two pairs,