Is it time to lay this down?

What hands do you put villian on and do you lay this down at this point?
Secondly, would you have played this any differently to get to this point?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($43.65)
UTG+1 ($46.75)
MP1 ($34.80)
MP2 ($62.80)
Hero ($33.85)
Button ($51.25)
SB ($30.25)
BB ($91.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.50, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)

MP1 bets $3.50, Hero raises $5.50 to $9, MP1 raises $5.50 to $14.50

i push, i dont think 44 3-bets this flop and AJ probably raises pf, poker tracker stats would help. i have him on AT or a flush draw

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Originally Posted by bair

i push, i dont think 44 3-bets this flop and AJ probably raises pf, poker tracker stats would help. i have him on AT or a flush draw

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Villian had only been at the table for 8 hands, but had played just about every hand and was somewhat aggressive. Below are a couple of the hands he had played.

Hand 1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($45.90)
BB ($49.50)
UTG =#A500AF(Villian)/ ($49.50)
UTG+1 ($59.50)
Hero ($35.10)
MP2 ($52)
CO ($48.60)
Button ($67.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG =#A500AF(Villian)/ raises to $1.5, 3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Villian bets $4.5, CO calls $4.50, Button folds.

Turn: ($14.25) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Villian bets $9, CO calls $9.

River: ($32.25) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Villian checks, CO bets $28, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $60.25

Hand 2
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($45.65)
Button ($48.75)
SB =#A500AF(Villian)/ ($50)
BB ($64.30)
Hero ($35.10)
UTG+1 ($52)
MP1 ($59.80)
MP2 ($66.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB =#A500AF(Villian)/ raises to $1.5, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1.

Flop: ($3.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villian bets $3, MP2 raises to $9, Villian calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Villian checks, MP2 bets $11, Villian calls $11.

River: ($43.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villian checks, MP2 bets $30, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $73.50


The big difference is that in the above hands he was not driving any action, just coming along (till the river on one hand). Does the fact that he is re-raising on the flop make you believe he has a made hand this time?

I don't think AJ necessarily raises p/f here.

AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.

hand 1 makes me think aj is in his pf raise range, i still push...did you get to see his hand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.

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I agree with this...$2 is not enough at NL50. I might be passive in this position and lay it down. Keep in mind that this is not the last street you will probably have to bet on. How far do you want to go with TP good kicker? There are a lot of hands that are ahead, and I think there are much better spots to push.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bair

hand 1 makes me think aj is in his pf raise range, i still push...did you get to see his hand?

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Whta range could you put him on here?

BTW, yes I did get to see his hand and will post the turn later today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lodogg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.

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I agree with this...$2 is not enough at NL50. I might be passive in this position and lay it down. Keep in mind that this is not the last street you will probably have to bet on. How far do you want to go with TP good kicker? There are a lot of hands that are ahead, and I think there are much better spots to push.

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Good points, especially pre-flop (yours and Samsonite's). One of the reasons I posted this was because I am typically VERY patient against aggressive players however this hand is borderline on one that I would go with against someone with a wide range of starting hands.

Based on the limited info we have on villian what starting range would you put him on and how does that range narrow based on his flop play (versus his play in the other two hands I posted)?

Below is the range of hands that I put villian on pre-flop:

2's - 9's (I think he would raise on any pair higher than 9's)
Axs - X could be any card as players like this love to chase flushes
Connectors from 67 - JQ
A8 - AJ
K9 - KJ

Is this a reasonable range or should it be wider?

I don't think we're capable of putting him on much of a range from the other two hands. What we do know is he's a probably chronic TP?K caller-downer who chickens out on the river--although the second hand he could've been on a straight draw. When a player like this 3bets the flop, you're screwed.

Gator, did you read Aok's recent post on playing TP. I think it's in the beginner's forum. Basically he says that, as a rule of thumb, most of the time when you have TPTK and you get reraised, you know you're beat. I've found it to be extraordinarily accurate advice so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I don't think we're capable of putting him on much of a range from the other two hands. What we do know is he's a probably chronic TP?K caller-downer who chickens out on the river--although the second hand he could've been on a straight draw. When a player like this 3bets the flop, you're screwed.

Gator, did you read Aok's recent post on playing TP. I think it's in the beginner's forum. Basically he says that, as a rule of thumb, most of the time when you have TPTK and you get reraised, you know you're beat. I've found it to be extraordinarily accurate advice so far.

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I haven't read that post, but have realized that as well and now try to play under the "It's only a pair damnit" theory.

On the other hand I can't count on both hands and feet the number of times I have been re-raised with TPTK or TPGK only to fold and have villian end up with a weaker kicker or pair. I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.

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I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.

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QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Quote:

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I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.

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QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.

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Yeah, it only took me about 12,000 hands to figure out this very basic, and important, concept.

Well, at least I got it eventually...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Quote:

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I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.

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QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.

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Well said, I guess I am getting better at this as now I notice when it happens. Thanks for the input.

results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bair

results?

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Ended up with all of my chips in the middle and he flipped over 44.

Buh Bye and thanks for playing.

Thanks for all of the comments everyone.

lol he min reraised you after you raised preflop and raised his flop lead on a really scary board.

what did you expect he would have?

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Originally Posted by Lukie

lol he min reraised you after you raised preflop and raised his flop lead on a really scary board.

what did you expect he would have?

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After my moment of idiotic bliss passed I knew he would flip over one of 3 hands - AJ, JJ or 44 (with JJ being not as apparent as the other two).