Top two pair donkish line.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($166)
CO ($157)
Button ($280.55)
Hero ($217.95)
BB ($198)
UTG ($60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
2 folds, CO raises to $8, Button calls $8, Hero calls $7, 1 fold.

Flop: ($26) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $15, Hero calls $15, CO folds.

Turn: ($56) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $24, Button calls $24.

River: ($104) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $40, Button calls $40.

Final Pot: $184

I like raising the flop.

I have to say, sax, I don't really understand your play on this hand at all. First the call with KQo OOP - maybe that's read-dependant here, but I hate this damn hand and will always, always avoid playing it out of position against multiple opponents for a raise. Seems like questionable EV at best, unless CO and button are both big fat donks - in which case, why not re-raise to isolate on the CO?

After that, your flop line is strange. Check-call with what is probably the best hand on a flop where you DEFINITELY do not want to see an ace, a ten, a jack, or a nine... why? If CO calls the bet also, I think it's safe to say you might as well cold-fold the turn if any big card comes down (other than another king or queen, obviously). Personally I'd prefer to lead that flop hard and if necessary get all the money in against the CO if it goes that way.

The fact that my hand is vulnerable, and the fact that very few second best hands will play a big pot against me if I show immediate strength is, I think, good reason to play my hand a little slowly and keep the pot small on the flop. That's why I check-called. Leading out is probably fine too. I think a flop of K, Q, 3 changes the dynamic quite a bit.

I personally hate check-raising, as this tells all second best hands to fold, and J-J, K-K, Q-Q, 9-T and A-T to call or reraise.

Why not make it 40-50 at the turn and push the river?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

I personally hate check-raising, as this tells all second best hands to fold, and J-J, K-K, Q-Q, 9-T and A-T to call or reraise.

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Check-raising with a wide range in semi-maniacal style doesn't send such a clear message...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

The fact that my hand is vulnerable, and the fact that very few second best hands will play a big pot against me if I show immediate strength is, I think, good reason to play my hand a little slowly and keep the pot small on the flop.

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But I think the fact that your hand is vulnerable makes check-calling undesirable. I'd rather lead or check-raise (preferably lead) than check-call. I am in favor of controlling the pot size though, because anyone that comes along for the ride is a scary unknown (are they drawing? are they ahead of you?). Personally I would tend toward leading all three streets until/unless a really bad card landed, and then going with a check-and-reevaluate. I'd lead for $18 on the flop and then 1/2 pot the rest of the way if blanks keep coming.

I don't like this at all, check/raise the flop or lead. As played definitely c/r the turn and then push the river. Your hand is very strong but as others have said very vulnerable. On the river I at least bet 1/2 the pot here and hope to get called.

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Originally Posted by aislephive

I don't like this at all, check/raise the flop or lead. As played definitely c/r the turn and then push the river. Your hand is very strong but as others have said very vulnerable. On the river I at least bet 1/2 the pot here and hope to get called.

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Ok, so next time there's a three-straight on board, build a huge pot out of position with two pair?

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aislephive

I don't like this at all, check/raise the flop or lead. As played definitely c/r the turn and then push the river. Your hand is very strong but as others have said very vulnerable. On the river I at least bet 1/2 the pot here and hope to get called.

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Ok, so next time there's a three-straight on board, build a huge pot out of position with two pair?

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Top two pair on a rainbow board? Definitely. You're delusional if you think KQ isn't good here 90% of the time. The only two hands I'm slightly worried about are T9 and AT, but it's much much more likely he has something like KJ or QJ, possibly something like a pair and a straight draw. I don't think the button here is smooth calling with KK-JJ, and if he does indeed have either of those hands then that's poker. It seems to me like you're afraid to play a big pot without the stone cold nuts, which is a shame really because by playing hands like the one in this thread you cost yourself a lot of money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aislephive

I don't like this at all, check/raise the flop or lead. As played definitely c/r the turn and then push the river. Your hand is very strong but as others have said very vulnerable. On the river I at least bet 1/2 the pot here and hope to get called.

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Ok, so next time there's a three-straight on board, build a huge pot out of position with two pair?

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Your line lets people draw while you're OOP for way too cheap. Check raise here is much better. Shove some chips down your opponents throat when you have a hand which is very likely to be the best, but needs some protection.

Nobodys saying you have to get married to it if you get too much action, but you need to put a lot more heat on your opponents in this spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

The fact that my hand is vulnerable, and the fact that very few second best hands will play a big pot against me if I show immediate strength is, I think, good reason to play my hand a little slowly and keep the pot small on the flop. That's why I check-called.

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From my experience at 200nl, there are a lot of idiots that will pay you off with a 2nd best hand here. If I knew villian was a solid player, then things might change a little, but against an unknown, I play this hand hard and fast and not worry if he turns over a better hand. Like others have said, I think leading this flop is definitely the best choice over cr and c/c.

Also, the fact that your hand is somewhat vulnerable is that much more of a reason to play it faster. It's not like you gain a lot of equity againt his range by waiting for a safe turn to put lots of money in, as would be the case with something like an overpair vs. oesfd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aislephive

It seems to me like you're afraid to play a big pot without the stone cold nuts, which is a shame really because by playing hands like the one in this thread you cost yourself a lot of money.

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I fail to see how not going apeshit with certain hands is "being afraid to play a big pot."

Would you play KKK the same way? You might as well since we're ahead/behind the same hands as we are with KQ here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aislephive

Would you play KKK the same way? You might as well since we're ahead/behind the same hands as we are with KQ here.

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change that to JJ and i agree..a set his definitely in opponents range on flop