How to handle this donk push

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05-31-2006, 01:35 AM
Rockymv

How to handle this donk push

POKERSTARS GAME #5106580872: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/05/31 - 01:30:08 (ET)
Table 'Muscida II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: halijedi ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: FOFOBUZZ ($25.90 in chips)
Seat 3: cgl846 ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 4: maingoal1 ($10.90 in chips)
Seat 5: kevinfet ($75.95 in chips)
Seat 6: LaGx-C ($52.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Rockymv ($65.35 in chips)
Seat 9: capaneo ($49.50 in chips)
maingoal1: posts small blind $0.25
kevinfet: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rockymv [Kh Ac]
LaGx-C: folds
Rockymv: raises $1.50 to $2
capaneo: folds
halijedi: calls $2
FOFOBUZZ: folds
cgl846: folds
maingoal1: folds
kevinfet: folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 4s Ad]
Rockymv: bets $3.50
halijedi: raises $3.50 to $7
Rockymv: calls $3.50
*** TURN *** [2s 4s Ad] [9h]
daniel158 joins the table at seat #8
Rockymv: checks
halijedi: bets $41 and is all-in
Rockymv:?????????
05-31-2006, 01:41 AM
DaHorror

Looks like a call based on the action...though it looks like he has a weaker ace with the flush draw and is overplaying the crap outta it - may just have the flush draw or weaker ace given the silliness of his play.
05-31-2006, 01:46 AM
Halv

Meh, with no reads I probably just let this one go and take his cash on another opportunity. He might have anything from a weak ace via flush draw and two pair to a set.
05-31-2006, 10:29 AM
Galapogos

If he has the ace with a flush draw I think it's stupid for him to push the turn here as you obviously have AK-AQ and the chances of him hitting his outs are less. I think he's trying to get you out fast before his 2 pair gets beat or something.

I'd say let him have it if you don't know enough about him yet.
05-31-2006, 10:33 AM
Rondavu

You can call and lose, or fold and win anyway based on longterm implied odds.
05-31-2006, 11:23 AM
LimpinAintEZ

i would usually re-raise the flop here - Your hand isn't looking to get much better - It is TPTK - He might be semi bluffing, or raising you to see if YOU are on a flush draw - If you get re-raised I would fold it - Just calling the raise says to me that you are just on a draw here or your unsure of your pocket pair (I think a lot of players would bet KK here the same way to find out of the opp. has an Ace) - I reraise the flop and be prepared to check/fold the rest....Its certainly much cheaper than calling the all in river bet - Checking the turn still is announcing your weak - The 9h doesn't seem to be a scare card to me - but when you check your giving him free reign to bet into you - since you only called his flop raise, he doesn't know where your at - Maybe he thinks that you want a free flush card there -
05-31-2006, 11:29 AM
Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

Based on metagame, my favorite thing to do is act like I'm drawing so the villain bets huge on the turn to find out "Surprise, my hand is already made"
05-31-2006, 11:31 AM
Miffed22001

call the flop bet $8 into the turn, probably folding to a reraise/push as longterm you probably arent good here vs sets etc.
05-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

So true, I'm often wondering why no one seems to like giving odds. Although, at the 50NL stakes I will rarely give someone odds as they will pay any price most times to hit that flush. But if it's a smarter player I will give him all the reason in the world to chase if I know he's on a draw.
05-31-2006, 11:51 AM
LimpinAintEZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

Based on metagame, my favorite thing to do is act like I'm drawing so the villain bets huge on the turn to find out "Surprise, my hand is already made"

The problem for me is that in NL, 1 pair is not a great hand - I would do that with a set here, or 2 pair maybe, but with 1 pr I don't want to get involved in a huge pot here - If they are raising your flop bet and betting hard on the turn you are probably way behind - I take my small pot and move on - I don't want to call an all in with 1 pair here - no way - define your hand on the flop and be willing to get away from it if you encounter more opposition....if you lose your stack with 1 pair, you deserve to lose it - I don't see 1 pair as a made hand - I would rather re-raise the flop and either take the small/avg. pot, rather than getting into a big pot with only 1 pair - there are better spots to slowplay (let them draw) than this...IMO
05-31-2006, 11:54 AM
LimpinAintEZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

So true, I'm often wondering why no one seems to like giving odds. Although, at the 50NL stakes I will rarely give someone odds as they will pay any price most times to hit that flush. But if it's a smarter player I will give him all the reason in the world to chase if I know he's on a draw.

His betting pattern doesn't tell me hes on a flush draw here - He raised our flop bet, and went all in on the turn - He MAY be drawing, but his betting says to me that he is trying to protect his hand - ie, 2 pair or a set - Do you find a lot of players that go all in (with decent stack) on a flush draw on the turn? I don't - I find players on a draw want to call here or at least make a reasonable sized bet - All in on turn says hes trying to protect his hand there....Either case, I don't call all in with only 1 pair - too many hands beat me -
05-31-2006, 12:51 PM
Galapogos

Yeah I was actually going off on a tangent there. If you look further uup in the thread you and I are actually on the same line of thought for this particular hand :P
05-31-2006, 01:33 PM
Rondavu

Limpinaintez, I think it's obvious villain isn't drawing in this case. My comments about destroying odds were more or less off subject. I'm always folding this push to an unknown player. Like I said, you automatically win by folding in this spot. If you're behind you save money, if you're ahead you end up taking villains money anyway throughout the session.
05-31-2006, 01:34 PM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

You can call and lose, or fold and win anyway based on longterm implied odds.

can you explain what you are trying to say?

Lukie no comprende
05-31-2006, 01:35 PM
Lukie

Re: How to handle this donk push

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymv

POKERSTARS GAME #5106580872: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/05/31 - 01:30:08 (ET)
Table 'Muscida II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: halijedi ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: FOFOBUZZ ($25.90 in chips)
Seat 3: cgl846 ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 4: maingoal1 ($10.90 in chips)
Seat 5: kevinfet ($75.95 in chips)
Seat 6: LaGx-C ($52.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Rockymv ($65.35 in chips)
Seat 9: capaneo ($49.50 in chips)
maingoal1: posts small blind $0.25
kevinfet: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rockymv [Kh Ac]
LaGx-C: folds
Rockymv: raises $1.50 to $2
capaneo: folds
halijedi: calls $2
FOFOBUZZ: folds
cgl846: folds
maingoal1: folds
kevinfet: folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 4s Ad]
Rockymv: bets $3.50
halijedi: raises $3.50 to $7
Rockymv: calls $3.50
*** TURN *** [2s 4s Ad] [9h]
daniel158 joins the table at seat #8
Rockymv: checks
halijedi: bets $41 and is all-in
Rockymv:?????????

Any reads?

I'd consider 3-betting the flop or calling and leading strong on a safe turn.

as played, fold to the push.
05-31-2006, 02:46 PM
samsonite2100

I 3bet this flop, too. I prefer 3betting when you make TPTK OOP on flops like this to just calling and betting the turn. It makes the rest of the hand much easier to play, not to mention you often take it down right then and there.
05-31-2006, 05:31 PM
stuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

Why make it correct for them to chase?
05-31-2006, 06:16 PM
givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

Why make it correct for them to chase?

It would be incorrect for them to call $7-$9 on the turn with a FD in a $14 pot.
05-31-2006, 06:21 PM
stuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I love how people annihilate drawing odds. I want people chasing. If I think someone is drawing to a flush, and the turn pot is $14, I'll bet $7-9. Chase all day for all I care.

Why make it correct for them to chase?

It would be incorrect for them to call $7-$9 on the turn with a FD in a $14 pot.

Well, yeah. I know that. It makes it more correct though. Basically what I want to know is: how does one tell the difference between a real flush looking to get paid off after making incorrect calls, and someone bluffing at the flush if it hits?