Donk overbet on river wtf?

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06-03-2006, 10:57 PM
givememyleg

Donk overbet on river wtf?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($63)
CO ($51.65)
Button ($12.90)
SB ($54.65)
BB ($41)
UTG ($79.65)
UTG+1 ($54.35)
givememyleg ($53.20)
MP2 ($49.25)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP1 with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
2 folds, givememyleg calls $0.50, 5 folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, givememyleg bets $1, BB calls $1.

Turn: ($3.25) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, givememyleg checks.

River: ($3.25) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $24.5, givememyleg calls $24.50.

BB sat down about 3 hands ago, bought in for full, lost a $9 pot without showdown.. only "read" I have on him. Easy call or Stupid call?
06-04-2006, 12:56 AM
Knytestorme

Could be on of those people that don't really care about extracting maximum value out of a hand and just try and get someone for as much as possible as soon as they hit their hand, or perhaps they just get excited seeing a hand and push hoping for a call but happy to take whatever is in there at the time.

I'm probably seeming like a pussy given my thread and the opinion I'm going to give here, but this hand I lay down for the following reasons:

1. You have only $1.50 invested up to here and the pot is $3 so you are looking to pay $24.50 for $27.50 pot after his bet (or getting 1.122:1 odds)

2. If you can put him on a range of something like Ax, Kx sooted then he has you beat.....hell, even J5 has you beat, and given he was in an unraised BB then it is possible.

Given you're getting close to even money for the river bet, and you aren't sure where you're at in regards to the flush, I lay this down and look for a better spot to stack him.

As you say, you don't have a read on him yet so it's hard to determine what this play means (and perhaps a small feeler bet on the turn would have helped here) so it's hard to say if it was a good or bad call but for me it's a coinflip that I probably would have ended up folding to unless I had more invested in the pot.
06-04-2006, 01:16 AM
givememyleg

So you're saying I spewed here?? I agree with you I should have waited for a read. It was just one of those "wtf does this mean?!" I took about 45 secs to call.

Anyone else think I spewed?
06-04-2006, 01:24 AM
Knytestorme

I'd just say....it depends :)

For some people it would be an easy call, for me it's a difficult choice with a major lean to folding with a read.

The issue with the decision is that the odds of another player at full ring getting dealt 2 hearts at the same time you have 2 and the board has 3 is fairly low so you need to take that into account, and it's possible he has like 74h and you have him beat given he's in the BB and his river bet is trying to ensure no call BUT *for me* I don't have enough in this pot that I am committed to making that call and I look for a better spot to take his stack if he shows this to be a bluff/donk as I get a chance to get a better read/stats for him.
06-04-2006, 01:28 AM
givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

I'd just say....it depends :)

For some people it would be an easy call, for me it's a difficult choice with a major lean to folding with a read.

The issue with the decision is that the odds of another player at full ring getting dealt 2 hearts at the same time you have 2 and the board has 3 is fairly low so you need to take that into account, and it's possible he has like 74h and you have him beat given he's in the BB and his river bet is trying to ensure no call BUT *for me* I don't have enough in this pot that I am committed to making that call and I look for a better spot to take his stack if he shows this to be a bluff/donk as I get a chance to get a better read/stats for him.

To be honest I was more worried about the board being paired than anything. If the board wasn't paired I would have insta-called...

The fact that he was in the bb, as you said, makes me think I should have laid this down. I can only pretty much beat someone going crazy with air/trips/2pair/straight/lower flush.. and it is much easier to put someone on that with a read.

I'm such a donk.
06-04-2006, 01:35 AM
Knytestorme

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I can only pretty much beat someone going crazy with air/trips/2pair/straight/lower flush.

Putting it this way, the odds of them actually having two hearts with one higher than yours doesn't seem very likely does it :/

Think a turn bet would have helped here with a re-raise or insta-call giving you your answer but as played it's still a coinflip with both decisions having valid reasons for being made.
06-04-2006, 01:44 AM
givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

Putting it this way, the odds of them actually having two hearts with one higher than yours doesn't seem very likely does it :/

Think a turn bet would have helped here with a re-raise or insta-call giving you your answer but as played it's still a coinflip with both decisions having valid reasons for being made.

Yeah I agree with everything you said here, thanks for the replies. I thought about betting the turn, which probably would have been the best idea, but then thought, eh free card. Me likey spewey!

Thanks for your opinion.
06-04-2006, 04:59 AM
Fnord

Re: Donk overbet on river wtf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em

Fold.
06-04-2006, 10:53 AM
andy-akb

Id fold this simply because you dont have much invested and have no reads. On a non-paired board Id probably call this, but wouldnt like it too much. This could be trips or some random hand we beat, but again, no read and not much committed Im folding here.

Now, preflop Im not really a big fan of open limping SCs. If there were a few limps before you, then thats ok, but I think if you are opening it should be for a raise.

As played Im not sure I bet that flop. You arent continuing your preflop action because you simply limped and your only draw is to a flush. Why not take a free card here? If you get checkraised you are going to have to ditch your hand and your draw is strong so it would be a shame to have to lay that down. So as played Id probably check behind the flop and fold that river, Id rather raise preflop though.
06-04-2006, 02:12 PM
dalecooper

Re: Donk overbet on river wtf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em

Fold.

I :heart: Fnord
06-04-2006, 02:14 PM
dalecooper

By the way, I see two separate comments in this thread about having money "invested." Bear in mind, always, that you never invest in a pot in poker. This isn't like the stock market or a bank account where you can expect a reasonable return. When you put money in, it goes bye-bye into the community pile, and you become just another stray dog fighting over the dead possum in the middle. You fight harder if the possum is bigger, but the fact that you helped kill it don't mean shit.
06-04-2006, 03:30 PM
givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Id fold this simply because you dont have much invested and have no reads. On a non-paired board Id probably call this, but wouldnt like it too much. This could be trips or some random hand we beat, but again, no read and not much committed Im folding here.

Now, preflop Im not really a big fan of open limping SCs. If there were a few limps before you, then thats ok, but I think if you are opening it should be for a raise.

As played Im not sure I bet that flop. You arent continuing your preflop action because you simply limped and your only draw is to a flush. Why not take a free card here? If you get checkraised you are going to have to ditch your hand and your draw is strong so it would be a shame to have to lay that down. So as played Id probably check behind the flop and fold that river, Id rather raise preflop though.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here. The reason behind limping is the table was pretty limp happy, and I wanted to see a cheap flop with 3-4 people, which I was pretty sure would happen. Problem is, at the time I didn't think about playing this oop, which I would have been. When it folded to the bb I thought "meh, well this sucks." I agree that a raise preflop would be better than limping with none in front. I'm just starting to open up my pf game a bit more so everytime I raise/re-raise I will sometimes get some action.

I just tried to take it down on the flop, which might not have been a good idea? You're right, I really didn't want a check/raise, but I guess I didn't mind a call too much. By him check/calling I was pretty sure I would see the river if I checked behind the turn.

I guess $25 was a lot to pay for information when I could have gotten it from a later hand; probably one I wasn't even involved in.
06-04-2006, 03:31 PM
givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

By the way, I see two separate comments in this thread about having money "invested." Bear in mind, always, that you never invest in a pot in poker. This isn't like the stock market or a bank account where you can expect a reasonable return. When you put money in, it goes bye-bye into the community pile, and you become just another stray dog fighting over the dead possum in the middle. You fight harder if the possum is bigger, but the fact that you helped kill it don't mean shit.

So are you saying that the reason for folding here isn't because the pot is only $3, but because I have no read on opp?
06-04-2006, 05:50 PM
dalecooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

So are you saying that the reason for folding here isn't because the pot is only $3, but because I have no read on opp?

No, I'm saying that the part of that 3.00 that used to be yours shouldn't be considered at all when you're making a decision about whether to call or not. If you put in half of the $3, that isn't an investment - it's money spent and gone.

The fact that it's a $3 pot, however, should DEFINITELY be taken into consideration when thinking of a call here. I don't call huge overbets on small pots unless I have the nuts, the 2nd nuts, or a very good read. Your pot odds are crap, it's almost even money to call because the pot is so small, so you need to feel pretty certain that you're ahead a lot of the time here to call this.
06-04-2006, 08:00 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

By the way, I see two separate comments in this thread about having money "invested." Bear in mind, always, that you never invest in a pot in poker. This isn't like the stock market or a bank account where you can expect a reasonable return. When you put money in, it goes bye-bye into the community pile, and you become just another stray dog fighting over the dead possum in the middle. You fight harder if the possum is bigger, but the fact that you helped kill it don't mean shit.

Yes, when the money goes into the pot it is no longer yours, I agree with this, I disagree that you cant expect a reasonable return on what you put in though. You can and its your edge, the average return you expect on your bets. Why would we play if we cant expect a reasonable return?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

So are you saying that the reason for folding here isn't because the pot is only $3, but because I have no read on opp?

No, I'm saying that the part of that 3.00 that used to be yours shouldn't be considered at all when you're making a decision about whether to call or not. If you put in half of the $3, that isn't an investment - it's money spent and gone.

The fact that it's a $3 pot, however, should DEFINITELY be taken into consideration when thinking of a call here. I don't call huge overbets on small pots unless I have the nuts, the 2nd nuts, or a very good read. Your pot odds are crap, it's almost even money to call because the pot is so small, so you need to feel pretty certain that you're ahead a lot of the time here to call this.

This is really just arguing semantics. What can we infer by the statement "you havent committed much to this pot" in a heads up pot? We know that there is only one other person in the pot and they also have not committed much. So what happens when two people dont commit much? There isnt much there, meaning its a small pot, meaning we shouldnt want to take such bad odds on a call we cant be very sure about at all, meaning we are saying the same exact thing.