I DONT think i should stop, this was just a bad hand

Printable View

06-12-2006, 05:42 PM
apunisher

I DONT think i should stop, this was just a bad hand

***** Hand History for Game 4500249061 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 12, 17:37:51 ET 2006
Table Hohenstein (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: AATrain01 ( $77.92 )
Seat 7: filosofi ( $79.25 )
Seat 5: paienjinis ( $77.48 )
Seat 8: Xenod ( $49.25 )
Seat 1: rossdisco ( $51.02 )
Seat 2: sullydufus ( $8 )
Seat 10: lunaticfrnge ( $10.25 )
Seat 3: GAorBust ( $61.17 )
Seat 9: bobbo621 ( $44.50 )
Seat 4: DoctorFunke ( $27 )
AATrain01 posts small blind [$0.25].
filosofi posts big blind [$0.50].
DoctorFunke posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AATrain01 [ As Ah ]
Xenod folds.
bobbo621 folds.
lunaticfrnge folds.
rossdisco folds.
GAorBust calls [$0.50].
DoctorFunke checks.
paienjinis folds.
AATrain01 raises [$1.75].
filosofi folds.
GAorBust calls [$1.50].
DoctorFunke folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 2c, Qc ]
>You have options at Table 95483 Table!.
AATrain01 bets [$3.50].
>You have options at Table 95896 Table!.
GAorBust raises [$8.50].
>You have options at Moon Puppy Table!.
AATrain01 calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]
AATrain01 checks.
GAorBust bets [$13].
AATrain01 calls [$13].
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
AATrain01 checks.
GAorBust is all-In [$37.67]
AATrain01 calls [$37.67].

Kinda the culmination of a bad day
:cry:
06-12-2006, 05:47 PM
freechus9

Weak sauce, buddy. Check/call check/call on a paired board is no goot. I'd lead the turn and dump if raised. Your line is just terrible. And don't worry shit happens. You'll get the hang of it eventually. Just try not to play with emotions as much as you can.
06-12-2006, 05:50 PM
apunisher

i really only though one hand beat me, i don't think hed be limping and calling with jj/qq, and i don't think hed be raising with jx. Doesn't that mean only 22 beats me. I shouldn't be paying that off?
06-12-2006, 05:52 PM
Fnord

QJ

This is why I hammer it harder pre-flop out of position. It gives you more room to pay these off.
06-12-2006, 05:53 PM
freechus9

It's not that you shouldn't go broke here (something which is debatable) but it's your manner of doing so. Your line screams weakness. Do you see why? Check/calling is a LOT weaker than say, betting outright or check/raising. You lose a lot of fold equity when you check/call the turn and river. And especially against a push on the river, your 1 pair is probably no good.

EDIT: You lose ALL fold equity when you check/call the turn and river.
06-12-2006, 05:57 PM
apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

It's not that you shouldn't go broke here (something which is debatable) but it's your manner of doing so. Your line screams weakness. Do you see why? Check/calling is a LOT weaker than say, betting outright or check/raising. You lose a lot of fold equity when you check/call the turn and river. And especially against a push on the river, your 1 pair is probably no good.

EDIT: You lose ALL fold equity when you check/call the turn and river.

ok, it probably isn't, but it if were, do i want fe if opp has aq, kq, fd, or any other hand i beat. If i decide that i am going to pay it off, isn't better to let weaker hands bet into me than chase off all the hands i actually do beat?
06-12-2006, 06:03 PM
freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.
06-12-2006, 06:09 PM
apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

in all likelihood, none of those hands in the first group are getting chased off
I doubt villain would limp call qq or jj, and i don't think jx raises flop. Maybe you disagree with those statements but thats what i thought at the time and thats still what i think now.

I do agree that QJ and 22 are very possible and probably likely, so are you basically saying, dont go broke on this hand to any of the last 3 hands b/c u think the first 2 are more likely?
06-12-2006, 06:18 PM
Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

in all likelihood, none of those hands in the first group are getting chased off
I doubt villain would limp call qq or jj, and i don't think jx raises flop. Maybe you disagree with those statements but thats what i thought at the time and thats still what i think now.

U raise was not big enough preflop,and bad players instacall with hands like QJ,KJ or other hands that had u beat.
And in this situation if u just call his bets u dont get any info,if u raise him 3 times his bet on the flop and he would call it then u know u could be in trouble.
Don't worry,eventually u will learn to get away from AA.
06-12-2006, 06:29 PM
apunisher

[quote="Dislexsik"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

in all likelihood, none of those hands in the first group are getting chased off
I doubt villain would limp call qq or jj, and i don't think jx raises flop. Maybe you disagree with those statements but thats what i thought at the time and thats still what i think now.

y do u think i have never lain down aa, trust me i have more times than i can count on one hand, i just don't like to without a good reason
06-12-2006, 06:43 PM
Dislexsik

[quote="apunisher"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

in all likelihood, none of those hands in the first group are getting chased off
I doubt villain would limp call qq or jj, and i don't think jx raises flop. Maybe you disagree with those statements but thats what i thought at the time and thats still what i think now.

y do u think i have never lain down aa, trust me i have more times than i can count on one hand, i just don't like to without a good reason

Well it sure didn't look like u could,as shown in this hand...
This was really easy to get away from...
06-12-2006, 06:44 PM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

y do u think i have never lain down aa, trust me i have more times than i can count on one hand, i just don't like to without a good reason

6 Whole times? :shock:
06-12-2006, 06:54 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

ok, it probably isn't, but it if were, do i want fe if opp has aq, kq, fd, or any other hand i beat. If i decide that i am going to pay it off, isn't better to let weaker hands bet into me than chase off all the hands i actually do beat?

Disregarding the situation at hand here, yes, it is good to get worse hands to bet into us. Now, lets look at the situation at hand here. Would these hands bet all three streets [including a raise on the flop] when you are showing no signs of going away? If Im calling that raise on the flop then Im most likely betting out on the turn and folding to a raise. Checking may get a worse hand to bet the turn, but not many are going to push the river when checked to.
06-12-2006, 07:10 PM
apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

y do u think i have never lain down aa, trust me i have more times than i can count on one hand, i just don't like to without a good reason

6 Whole times? :shock:

at least :cool:
06-12-2006, 07:16 PM
apunisher

[quote="Dislexsik"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

in all likelihood, none of those hands in the first group are getting chased off
I doubt villain would limp call qq or jj, and i don't think jx raises flop. Maybe you disagree with those statements but thats what i thought at the time and thats still what i think now.

y do u think i have never lain down aa, trust me i have more times than i can count on one hand, i just don't like to without a good reason

Well it sure didn't look like u could,as shown in this hand...
This was really easy to get away from...

Wow, im sorry, i guess i shouldn't even talk on the same forums with someone liek u who never makes mistakes
06-12-2006, 07:29 PM
Dislexsik

Damn,looks like somebody gets offended. :roll:
Ok u can get away from aces.Hell,u can get away from straights,sets or a FH!
Happy?
06-12-2006, 07:32 PM
freechus9

Look buddy, we're trying to help you. If you don't want our help then go post somewhere else. We're not saying we never make mistakes, but we ARE saying that you just did and we're trying to tell you why. If you can't handle that then maybe poker isnt your game.
06-12-2006, 07:53 PM
apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

Look buddy, we're trying to help you. If you don't want our help then go post somewhere else. We're not saying we never make mistakes, but we ARE saying that you just did and we're trying to tell you why. If you can't handle that then maybe poker isnt your game.

i never said i didnt want or appreciate anyones help. I appreciate all the helpful comments, just not the ones making a joke at my expense.

Dislexsik-what does it matter if u think it was an easy laydown? Are you trying to u convince me that ur a better player, because you probably need not bother. The point is, I didn't think it was an easy laydown-hence y i posted it.
06-12-2006, 08:14 PM
Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

Look buddy, we're trying to help you. If you don't want our help then go post somewhere else. We're not saying we never make mistakes, but we ARE saying that you just did and we're trying to tell you why. If you can't handle that then maybe poker isnt your game.

i never said i didnt want or appreciate anyones help. I appreciate all the helpful comments, just not the ones making a joke at my expense.

Dislexsik-what does it matter if u think it was an easy laydown? Are you trying to u convince me that ur a better player, because you probably need not bother. The point is, I didn't think it was an easy laydown-hence y i posted it.

U want an opinion,well i gave mine.
If u don't like opinions then don't bother posting hh's.
My first post in this thread was not to offend u or to make it look like im a better player then u.
I think u need to chill out...
06-12-2006, 08:36 PM
freechus9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

Look buddy, we're trying to help you. If you don't want our help then go post somewhere else. We're not saying we never make mistakes, but we ARE saying that you just did and we're trying to tell you why. If you can't handle that then maybe poker isnt your game.

i never said i didnt want or appreciate anyones help. I appreciate all the helpful comments, just not the ones making a joke at my expense.

Dislexsik-what does it matter if u think it was an easy laydown? Are you trying to u convince me that ur a better player, because you probably need not bother. The point is, I didn't think it was an easy laydown-hence y i posted it.

U want an opinion,well i gave mine.
If u don't like opinions then don't bother posting hh's.
My first post in this thread was not to offend u or to make it look like im a better player then u.
I think u need to chill out...

Agreed.
06-13-2006, 12:07 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

It's not that you shouldn't go broke here (something which is debatable) but it's your manner of doing so. Your line screams weakness. Do you see why? Check/calling is a LOT weaker than say, betting outright or check/raising. You lose a lot of fold equity when you check/call the turn and river. And especially against a push on the river, your 1 pair is probably no good.

EDIT: You lose ALL fold equity when you check/call the turn and river.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool what better hand are we going to fold out??????????????????????????????
06-13-2006, 12:09 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

dasjfskdjflasdjflk nlsafjnlk sdalf lskdaf ksdanlfk jlskdafj ksafeijai nesan
06-13-2006, 12:13 AM
Lukie

apunisher,

Unless the guy is a huge maniac, we have to find a fold somewhere in this hand. In truth, I like the c/c on the turn, but I'd probably dump to the river push. It is blatantly obvious what you have, and he's showing no signs of slowing down.

also I didn't really read the thread (just skimmed very briefly) but I find that if you make sarcastic, witty responses a lot like me, people tend to not f with you. :)
06-13-2006, 12:17 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

The thing is, you're beat by a lot more hands than you beat. You want to see if you can chase opp off a better hand rather than waiting till showdown. You are beaten by: QQ, QJ, JJ, 22, and Jx. You beat AQ/KQ/KK. See what im saying? When the board pairs, I don't think my 1 pair is any good. If I bet and get a call, its more likely that OPP has one of the hands we beat. If I bet and get raised, we can dump safely knowing that we are smoked. And hopefully if opp has Jx, we can bet him off his crappy kicker.

dasjfskdjflasdjflk nlsafjnlk sdalf lskdaf ksdanlfk jlskdafj ksafeijai nesan

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

forgot to hightlight that stuff last time
06-13-2006, 05:59 AM
jackvance

Yeah freechus9, that advice is pretty damn bad. Pushing off a hand that beats you? Making him lay down a J with a weak kicker? Wtf?...

I think by the turn, you're already not beating much anymore. I don't think I'd lay it down there either though, but I'd consider it, and definately lay down to the river push. Another thing you can do, is lead the turn. If he calls or raises, you can assume defeat a lot more easily.
06-13-2006, 06:07 AM
Renton

I raise more pf, prob to 2.5 or 3, bet flop, call raise, bet turn, fold to a raise.
06-13-2006, 06:31 AM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

Your line screams weakness. Do you see why? Check/calling is a LOT weaker than say, betting outright or check/raising.

Why are we concerned about taking a "weak" line? Do we not want worse hands bluffing at us? Or does check/call put us to tougher decisions, which is what you want to avoid? And check/raising is just terrible here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

You lose a lot of fold equity when you check/call the turn and river.

EDIT: You lose ALL fold equity when you check/call the turn and river.

This is just wrong. Do you know what fold equity means? Why are you talking about fold equity here? What better hand is going to fold?!?!?!?!?!??!

punisher, your line c/c is fine, and is especially effective against the kind of opponent that is likely to bluff when shown weakness, but you really need to let it go on the river.

To all those advocating calling the flop raise and bet/folding the turn, how often are you taking this line with a monster, say queens full?
06-13-2006, 06:37 AM
jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

To all those advocating calling the flop raise and bet/folding the turn, how often are you taking this line with a monster, say queens full?

To be honest, I don't think I'd ever bet/fold queens full.

Seriously though, I don't think I'd lead with a real monster, but with plenty of strong but vulnerable hands, such as 2p or overpair. It's also a metagame thing, raising me on the flop is no guaranteed free river.
06-13-2006, 02:36 PM
freechus9

Yea don't listen to me. What I was saying sounded good at the time :roll: . My B.
06-13-2006, 03:11 PM
apunisher

thx for the replies lukie, renton, vance, and bdawg, I see that it was the river where i should have folded given i was almost certainly beat there, because aq, kk, probably check behind unless they are like 90-100% certain i could fold to a push.
06-13-2006, 04:24 PM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Seriously though, I don't think I'd lead with a real monster, but with plenty of strong but vulnerable hands, such as 2p or overpair. It's also a metagame thing, raising me on the flop is no guaranteed free river.

Heh, you knew what I meant. But anyway, this is the point I am trying to get at. It seems like a lot of people on FTR like to use this call flop, and bet/fold turn line with good but not great hands that can't stand the heat. If you almost never call a flop raise with a monster and lead the turn, this is an absolute metagame disaster. A good aware opponent will pick up on this and jam the turn everytime he sees you use this line. Now at lower limits it's probably not much of an issue (metagame part), but trust me, as you move up where the players get better, you need to switch it up to not be predictable.

So what I would recommend is to in fact take this line with monsters, and even if the board is somewhat draw heavy, don't be afraid to use it, because if your opponent is v aggro, and you lead the turn, he might think exactly what I typed above and try to blast you off your hand. In the past month or so I've started to use this line w/monsters and it has worked pretty well.

Here are some hands to illustrate. First hand the money prob would've gone in on the turn, but he is a regular, so it's great for metagame that he knows I am capable of taking this line w/the nuts. Granted in the 2nd hand villian was an idiot, but had I pushed this flop, he would've no doubt folded. Instead I lead the turn, and he figures I'm weak, so he tries to blast me off.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($813)
Button ($730.30)
Hero ($420.40)
BB ($430.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $16, BB raises to $48, Hero calls $32.

Flop: ($96) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $72, Hero calls $72.

Turn: ($240) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $120, BB raises to $310.6, Hero calls $180.40 (All-In).

River: ($851) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $851

Results in white below:
Hero has Kd 9d (flush, ace high).
BB has Qc As (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $840.80. BB wins $10.20.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($400)
Button ($1001.85)
SB ($386)
BB ($411)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Hero raises to $16, Button raises to $28, 2 folds, Hero calls $12.

Flop: ($62) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $24, Hero raises to $64, Button raises to $104, Hero calls $40.

Turn: ($270) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $72, Button raises to $236, Hero raises to $268, Button calls $32.

River: ($806) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $806

Results in white below:
Hero has 9c 9d (three of a kind, nines).
Button has Jd Qh (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins $806.
06-13-2006, 05:09 PM
Silly String

Bdawg, Why would the second villian ever think he is going to push you off a hand? Your line screams strength unless he has some serious reads on you. WTF, are people really this bad at $400NL? He repped the draw horribly anyway.

As for original poster, in the absence of a read I like lead turn/fold to raise just as much as check/call turn, folding river push. Either one is fine. I would personally c/c the turn, but leading does give you some fold equity that c/c does not. Regardless, I go broke here without the 2nd J hitting the turn. That 2nd J was your ticket out of brokeville, but you missed the train.