KK against laggy player

Printable View

06-13-2006, 08:00 PM
Dislexsik

KK against laggy player

This guy was 38/9.
Should i cbet this or how should i play this?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($111.85)
Hero ($114.15)
MP3 ($151.85)
CO ($141.75)
Button ($100.30)
SB ($99)
BB ($62.02)
UTG ($43.75)
UTG+1 ($117.77)
UTG+2 ($34.18)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, Hero raises to $4, MP3 calls $4, 4 folds.

Flop: ($9.50) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $5

Final Pot: $14.50
06-13-2006, 08:24 PM
Warpe

I like c-betting here. If villain doesn't have an ace he's usually done.

Villain's bet seems a little weak. Did you c/r?
06-13-2006, 08:33 PM
Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I like c-betting here. If villain doesn't have an ace he's usually done.

Villain's bet seems a little weak. Did you c/r?

I folded like a weaktight player would do. :oops:
06-13-2006, 08:43 PM
zook

I like a c/r here, fold to 3-bet.
06-14-2006, 12:37 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I like c-betting here. If villain doesn't have an ace he's usually done.

Villain's bet seems a little weak. Did you c/r?

If villain doesnt have an ace, why do we want him to fold? A cbet is going to take down the pot the majority of the time, but that doesnt mean its the best play. You either win the pot with however much is in it now, or lose that extra bet. Id probably check/call here or check/raise. We are either way ahead or way behind, we fold out the hands we beat by betting and fold to the hands that beat us. Checking lets us get a bet out of the hands we beat. A check/raise and folding to a 3bet doesnt seem be bad and I think id lean towards that. Does check/calling have any merit?
06-14-2006, 12:51 AM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I like c-betting here. If villain doesn't have an ace he's usually done.

Villain's bet seems a little weak. Did you c/r?

If villain doesnt have an ace, why do we want him to fold? A cbet is going to take down the pot the majority of the time, but that doesnt mean its the best play. You either win the pot with however much is in it now, or lose that extra bet. Id probably check/call here or check/raise. We are either way ahead or way behind, we fold out the hands we beat by betting and fold to the hands that beat us. Checking lets us get a bet out of the hands we beat. A check/raise and folding to a 3bet doesnt seem be bad and I think id lean towards that. Does check/calling have any merit?

It's the cheapest way to find out if he has an ace. I'm usually happy to get out of flops like this with my skin. Check/raising is a stronger move but any meaningful raise costs you a lot more if you have to fold. Check/calling tells you nothing.
06-14-2006, 01:00 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

It's the cheapest way to find out if he has an ace. I'm usually happy to get out of flops like this with my skin. Check/raising is a stronger move but any meaningful raise costs you a lot more if you have to fold. Check/calling tells you nothing.

It also gives you the least when he doesnt have an ace. A check call may not tell you anything on the flop, and I dont know if I would play it that way, but on the turn it will definitely tell you something. I dont think you will see somebody fire a second barrel without an ace, I could be wrong though. If he is laggy he may, but even then id be surprised. Him being laggy is even more reason not to bet this flop because you can be fairly sure he will put a bet in with a worse hand.
06-14-2006, 01:16 AM
Warpe

What line would you take if you had an ace here?
06-14-2006, 01:21 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

What line would you take if you had an ace here?

What ace? AQ+? In hero's position or villains?

Why is a bet/fold better than check/raise? Again yea, you get information without risking as much, but you only can win what is in the pot preflop. With a check/raise [or a check/call, not necessarily advocating that, dont think it would be too horrible though] you get a bet from a worse hand and when raised you can dump it. You are going to have the better hand much more than the worse hand so we should be looking at how to get more money out of the worse hand.
06-14-2006, 01:28 AM
dsaxton

Check-raising sucks. Check-call the flop.
06-14-2006, 01:33 AM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-raising sucks. Check-call the flop.

And on the turn? Assume if you don't lead he makes another 1/2 pot-sized bet.

This seems like a classic WA/WB scenario... I always have trouble with these.
06-14-2006, 01:41 AM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

What line would you take if you had an ace here?

What ace? AQ+? In hero's position or villains?

Hero's...

If you had AK here, you would lead out, no?...or do you slowplay your trips? I never do, because my trips are someone else's boat. Your line should be consistent with whatever you would do if you actually did have an ace, that's all I'm saying...
06-14-2006, 06:46 AM
Dislexsik

I forgot something to say about this hand.
The villain always potbets hands like missed pocketpairs or draws.
So his smallish bet on the flop after i checked was kinda suspicious.
06-14-2006, 09:05 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-raising sucks. Check-call the flop.

Can you explain this? Im not disagreeing with you at all, I felt like that would be a good line to take on the flop but didnt really know why. Do you lead turn and hope to b/3b AI? How do you play it from there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

If you had AK here, you would lead out, no?...or do you slowplay your trips? I never do, because my trips are someone else's boat. Your line should be consistent with whatever you would do if you actually did have an ace, that's all I'm saying...

I think leading with an ace is better than leading with KK, but I still dont know if I would do it. With AK it is possible to get called by a worse ace, but the chances of there being a worse ace are very slim and if there is one out there it doesnt matter what you do really because against most players you will eventually get their chips in. We arent worried about getting the money from a worse ace, we are worried about getting it from a worse hand, one that wont call a bet but will make one or maybe even two. With KK it is the same situation except there is more than beats us and absolutely nothing we beat is folding to a beat here. We dont want to play KK like an ace because then everything besides an ace folds. Betting gives us an "easy" fold if he raises and if he simply calls we are also probably behind [KJs or QJs are the only hands that may call a bet from us on that flop], but again we arent trying to make it as easy as possible to fold, we are trying to get as much out of the hand as possible.
06-14-2006, 02:29 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-raising sucks. Check-call the flop.

bwhat?

the answer is, what would you do if you had AK? Do it.
06-14-2006, 05:13 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-raising sucks. Check-call the flop.

bwhat?

the answer is, what would you do if you had AK? Do it.

Why?

There is absolutely no reason to be aggressive here. The flop is safe, meaning if he has the best hand, he virtually has the hand won, so there is almost no equity to be gained by betting. And a worse hand almost never calls a bet or raise, so there is no value in these plays either.

Your best way of winning money, particularly against a loose aggressive player, is just show weakness and give him a chance to bluff or bet a hand that you beat. It also represents a certain level of weakness and might allow you to get a marginal call from him on the river with a lesser pocket pair, hands that are much likelier to fold to a flop bet.
06-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Fnord

dsaxton,

"Go an yard, but not a mile" lines interest me. Mostly because I suck at them.

What's your plan for the turn + river unimproved after check/calling the flop?

I like dsaxton's line if you have good reads, etc. However, playing "he who bluffs best at the unloved flop wins" no-showdown poker is much less stressful.
06-14-2006, 07:12 PM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

There is absolutely no reason to be aggressive here.

I think there are two reasons. One is to keep him from bluffing us out of the pot with a worse hand. Another is to try to figure out if he has the ace without calling value bets to the river.

I don't like a lead because if he folds, we may not have maximized value, and he may raise without the ace. I don't like a c/c because we're in the same place again on the turn. If we know he won't bet the turn without an ace, then c/c'ing is great and we can value bet the river, but I think many players are capable of betting the turn with worse pp's here.

I like a c/r because it gives us a chance to get some value and if he calls or raises, makes our hand easier to get away from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Your best way of winning money, particularly against a loose aggressive player, is just show weakness and give him a chance to bluff or bet a hand that you beat. It also represents a certain level of weakness and might allow you to get a marginal call from him on the river with a lesser pocket pair, hands that are much likelier to fold to a flop bet.

This isn't something I've thought about much, but I like it and will definitely remember it when I'm playing aggressive opponents. But the strategy seems like it would often pay off big hands, when being more aggressive early might let you identify them.
06-14-2006, 09:34 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

dsaxton,

"Go an yard, but not a mile" lines interest me. Mostly because I suck at them.

What's your plan for the turn + river unimproved after check/calling the flop?

I like dsaxton's line if you have good reads, etc. However, playing "he who bluffs best at the unloved flop wins" no-showdown poker is much less stressful.

Check-call flop, check turn, expect opponent to check behind, and value bet on the river. If opponent bets again on the turn, I often give him credit for an ace and fold. Perhaps this is too weak. Maybe if I knew my opponent was aggressive enough to try to represent the ace twice when I could be slow-playing him, then I might call, otherwise I don't really see much point in continuing. If my hand is good, I might be lucky and he'll check behind on the river, if not, I'll just be faced with another bet to call.

If my opponent checks behind on the flop, I'll usually still check it to him on the turn, and then bet the river.

I don't' really know a better way of playing these situations, but they do seem like a situation where slightly more passive play is optimal.
06-15-2006, 06:08 PM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Check-call flop, check turn, expect opponent to check behind, and value bet on the river.

OT, but I used this line or a variation (c/c turn) a few times as a bluff or semi-bluff last night, and it got opponent to fold to my river bet every time. Tight players at NL50 on Party are so worried about slowplayed monsters that this line will push them off top pairs. Added to the bag o' tricks...