Top 2 facing heat. (deep)

Villian (utg) is a solid tag 19/12. I have been running at 22/10. I think we both respect each other's game. Neither of us have gotten out of line. The game has just broken down to 4-handed play, so not much info on how villian plays 4-handed vs. 6-handed. When he 3-bets this flop, what do you think his range is, and what's my move? I don't think he takes this line with an overpair, although it is a possibility. Can I possibly find a fold?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($205.65)
UTG ($340.50)
Hero ($358)
SB ($232.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG raises to $8, Hero calls $8, 2 folds.

Flop: ($19) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $12, Hero raises to $50, UTG raises to $168, Hero?

A5d, 89d, AA-QQ, Could be protecting a set really strongly.

Not too sure what to do really.

call the flop 3bet reevaluate turn?
Lots of cards hit the turn we dont like so i dont like producing a big pot on the flop here.
Looks like a set or posible a flushdraw/oesd combo.
Could it be overs and a flush draw that thinks you only have a pair also? Id 3bet that into the right opponent.

With your read it's a close fold.

I don't think QQ+ is very likely, he seems committed. It's at least a pair+draw IMO. You're 50/50 vs. 89d/65d/A5d, toast vs. a set, 60/40 vs. overpair.

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Originally Posted by johnny_fish

With your read it's a close fold.

I don't think QQ+ is very likely, he seems committed. It's at least a pair+draw IMO. You're 50/50 vs. 89d/65d/A5d, toast vs. a set, 60/40 vs. overpair.

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You're almost a 3-1 favorite vs an overpair, not sure where you're getting 60/40 from. This looks like an easy push to me. He raised UTG and repops you on a drawy 674 flop, this is almost overs + flush draw / overpair / other combo draw / air. I push all day.

i like UTG's 3bet no matter what he has. that is one damn fine bet:

-if you fold he might win w/ a worse hand (overpair/semibluff/junk)
-if you call, he might push turn then what? (obv if you boat up it's easy call, but that only happens 1/3 of the time thru river)
-if you call and he doesn't open turn push, do you want to bet into him or check behind on turn? both seem like bad options after his flop action: he could be check raising you w/ a better hand (or worse one which would still be a tough call, no way to know) OR you could end up giving him the free card he was looking for on the river.
-if you push, he could be calling way ahead, OR he could fold an overpair

i like that 3bet. it puts you in one bitch of a spot.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

call the flop 3bet reevaluate turn?
Lots of cards hit the turn we dont like so i dont like producing a big pot on the flop here.
Looks like a set or posible a flushdraw/oesd combo.
Could it be overs and a flush draw that thinks you only have a pair also? Id 3bet that into the right opponent.

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I don't like a call as you're pretty much committing yourself after that. Push or fold IMO.

What hands is he doing this with that you beat? I'd just fold, especially with deep stacks.

Instafold.

all in

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Originally Posted by aislephive

This looks like an easy push to me. He raised UTG and repops you on a drawy 674 flop, this is almost overs + flush draw / overpair / other combo draw / air. I push all day.

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With 100BB stacks, then yes, you get the money in everytime. However, with deeper stacks versus a strong, thinking opponent, the situation changes dramatically. 3-betting with an overpair or overs + FD is fine with 100bb stacks, but with 170bb stacks, you are always going to be a significant dog if the money goes in on the flop. Always. (Edit: if the game was playing much more aggressively and we had some history between us, then this might not be the case, but at the time, the game was playing pretty nitty) Which is why I think that making this 3-bet with those kind of hands is just spew. Also, given the lack of history and "mutual respect", I think utg just about never has air here.

Here's how the hand actually played out. I was UTG and villian was on the button with 76s. I posted it from his perspective because I thought it would be more interesting than from mine.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($205.65)
Hero ($340.50)
Button ($358)
SB ($232.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Hero raises to $8, Button calls $8, 2 folds.

Flop: ($19) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, Button raises to $50, Hero raises to $168, Button raises to $350, Hero calls $164.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($701.50) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($701.50) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $701.50

Results in white below:
Hero has 8d 9d (straight, nine high).
Button has 6c 7c (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $684. Button wins $17.50.

I think it worked out ok, you were 48.8% to win. Coinflip, you lost it, too bad, but you did the right thing. I think his hand was to be expected.. this is more often than not some kind of big draw.

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

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Originally Posted by aislephive

This looks like an easy push to me. He raised UTG and repops you on a drawy 674 flop, this is almost overs + flush draw / overpair / other combo draw / air. I push all day.

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With 100BB stacks, then yes, you get the money in everytime. However, with deeper stacks versus a strong, thinking opponent, the situation changes dramatically. 3-betting with an overpair or overs + FD is fine with 100bb stacks, but with 170bb stacks, you are always going to be a significant dog if the money goes in on the flop. Always. (Edit: if the game was playing much more aggressively and we had some history between us, then this might not be the case, but at the time, the game was playing pretty nitty) Which is why I think that making this 3-bet with those kind of hands is just spew. Also, given the lack of history and "mutual respect", I think utg just about never has air here.

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There just isn't enough hands that he could really have that beat us imo to lay this down. 170xbb stacks aren't even all that deep really. People overplay draws/overpairs all the time, like in this hand here. You're behind a set of fours or the case two 6's/7's. I'm just never ever folding here on a board this draw heavy with top two in a HU pot, especially with 30xbbs committed already. You can't be afraid to get your chips in without the stone cold nuts, and given UTG's range we're ahead more than enough to get it all in here.

Aisle you make a good point, but 4 betting the flop with 170bb stacks is really bad with top two no matter how much has gone in since the flop. If it was reraised huge preflop and you hit top two thats a different story.

Calling his 3bet commits you to the pot and its not something you want to do.

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Aisle you make a good point, but 4 betting the flop with 170bb stacks is really bad with top two no matter how much has gone in since the flop. If it was reraised huge preflop and you hit top two thats a different story.

Calling his 3bet commits you to the pot and its not something you want to do.

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I would never consider just calling here, because that is too many chips to put in and not enough safe turn cards to shove. I think folding here is a big mistake unless opp is a huge nit who plays overpairs passively on scary flops. I just could never find a fold in this circumstance. It's one of those cases where both players played it fine but the other got lucky, that's poker. I mean, top two on this board is pretty much the equivelant of bottom set except a set has more equity against a big draw. If you aren't folding 444 here you shouldn't consider folding top two here either.

The problem is that any two pair is beaten by any set so top two is not a hand that I want to pay 170bb to find out if I'm either up against a set, super draw, or overpair. Even if it is the best case scenario and he has an overpair you don't have a lock by any means. Two-pair is even foldable with 100bb stacks often times.

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

The problem is that any two pair is beaten by any set so top two is not a hand that I want to pay 170bb to find out if I'm either up against a set, super draw, or overpair. Even if it is the best case scenario and he has an overpair you don't have a lock by any means. Two-pair is even foldable with 100bb stacks often times.

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Believe me, I know two pair is far from the nuts, but considering how the hand has played out you're ahead almost every time. Like I said, 67 is almost the same as 444 here. 444 is still behind any set on this board, even though that is one less set he could have, with us having 67 it also means 66/77 are remote. HU I'm just not laying top two down here, no way. If you are only going to war with sets in spots like this you are losing a ton of money imo.

I like the way both players played this hand. And to the person who said that the person with the overcard + open-ended straight flush draw overplayed his hand (4 handed game, heads up on the flop in a raised pot), wtf???

Smackin,

What kind of hand do you think we need to stack off here? Against -certain- opponents I'll fold to this 3-bet, but I mean it's your button, it's 4 handed, and given that, top 2 is a pretty huge hand. To fold, we pretty much have to put villain on exactly 44/66/77, of which 44 is more likely then the other 2 combined.

i call the flop and get the money in on a safe turn card.

i wish you hadnt posted results so soon so i could say that before everyone tells me how results oriented i am.

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Originally Posted by gabe

i call the flop and get the money in on a safe turn card.

i wish you hadnt posted results so soon so i could say that before everyone tells me how results oriented i am.

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What if the turn card isn't safe?

.. then we can drop the hand easily?

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I like the way both players played this hand. And to the person who said that the person with the overcard + open-ended straight flush draw overplayed his hand (4 handed game, heads up on the flop in a raised pot), wtf???

Smackin,

What kind of hand do you think we need to stack off here? Against -certain- opponents I'll fold to this 3-bet, but I mean it's your button, it's 4 handed, and given that, top 2 is a pretty huge hand. To fold, we pretty much have to put villain on exactly 44/66/77, of which 44 is more likely then the other 2 combined.

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I understand your guys' thinking and I agree that what you say makes sense and depending on the game and opponents I might play 2pair the same.

I just want to point out that yes, hand values go up as # players goes down, but when presented with enough information hand values remain the same no matter how many players happen to be sitting at the table. If someone sends strong signals that you're beat don't ignore them just because its shorthanded. I'm sure thats how a lot of HU specialists make a lot of money. I wasn't sitting at the table of course but from the HH and read, it looks like 2pair is no good. I still completely respect your opinion though and you might be in the right.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

.. then we can drop the hand easily?

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With half your stack in the pot? What if a scary turn card comes and he only has an overpair? I dont think calling is ever an option here.



I think this situation depends on the recent action at the table and your read on opp. Given your read, I think he either has an overpair, 2 Overs + flush draw, or 44. He raised preflop so I think an overpair / strong draw is more likely here than 44, but if he is loose enough to raise small pocket pairs from early position then it could be 44 too.

I think I push after his re-raise just because a set of 4s (or unlikely 66/77) is the only hand that has us beat, and given the action preflop and on the flop it looks more like a draw or an overpair.

Have you raised him on the flop like this recently? How did he respond the last time you raised him? Does he think you might be trying to steal the pot from him?

Does he see you raise the flop alot with sets/straights on draw heavy boards or are you more likely to slowplay them to the turn?

I think these are important questions vs a known opponent that might have a read on you, and could be using the knowledge that you probably believe that he is fairly tight and think he wont play back at you without a strong made hand.

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Originally Posted by Werddown

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Originally Posted by jackvance

.. then we can drop the hand easily?

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With half your stack in the pot? What if a scary turn card comes and he only has an overpair? I dont think calling is ever an option here.

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then overpairs wont push on a really scary board.

calling is fine.

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Originally Posted by Werddown

With half your stack in the pot? What if a scary turn card comes and he only has an overpair? I dont think calling is ever an option here.

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I thought we were talking about calling the first bet.

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I like the way both players played this hand. And to the person who said that the person with the overcard + open-ended straight flush draw overplayed his hand (4 handed game, heads up on the flop in a raised pot), wtf???

Smackin,

What kind of hand do you think we need to stack off here? Against -certain- opponents I'll fold to this 3-bet, but I mean it's your button, it's 4 handed, and given that, top 2 is a pretty huge hand. To fold, we pretty much have to put villain on exactly 44/66/77, of which 44 is more likely then the other 2 combined.

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I understand your guys' thinking and I agree that what you say makes sense and depending on the game and opponents I might play 2pair the same.

I just want to point out that yes, hand values go up as # players goes down, but when presented with enough information hand values remain the same no matter how many players happen to be sitting at the table. If someone sends strong signals that you're beat don't ignore them just because its shorthanded. I'm sure thats how a lot of HU specialists make a lot of money. I wasn't sitting at the table of course but from the HH and read, it looks like 2pair is no good. I still completely respect your opinion though and you might be in the right.

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Like Lukie said, you would have to put this guy on specifically 44/66/77 to fold here. 77/66 are very very remote, and against 44 we still have almost a 20% shot to win, which may not seem like a lot but given his frequency of having a set here it's enough for me.

I disagree with calling the three bet here, half the deck is pretty ugly for our hand. It's not like our hand is likely to improve, I'd shove and get it over with.

My thoughts are pretty much right in line with Smackin's, but I will just reiterate them. First, by posting it from his perspective and consequently knowing that villian was myself, my pov is obv going to be biased. But if I were villian and knew that my opponent was a solid thinking player, then I think this becomes a close fold on the flop because like I said before, I think it's pretty dumb to 3-bet and commit so much of my stack with an overpair or overs + FD type hand, especially when we are deep, because the only hands that play back at us have us in bad shape. This is based on the read that we don't have any history, and have not been getting out of line, hence we will be less likely to make moves on each other. My range for 3-betting in this specific case with 170BB stacks would probably be something like a set, straight, big draw, or maybe 2-pair. Top 2 on this flop just doesn't stand up well to my range. But obv villian is not going to know this exactly, so pushing with T2p is not necessarily a bad move. I think the line of thought that "it's 4-handed and i have top 2 so I have to stack off" is negated by two things, my range, and the deep stacks.

Gabe, are you saying you should call the flop c-bet or the 3-bet?