AJ top pair

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06-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Renton

AJ top pair

***** Hand History for Game 4556824465 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 20, 11:43:22 ET 2006
Table Table 107650 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: JCKFISHER ( $254.16 )
Seat 2: mikov1 ( $647.55 )
Seat 3: Mkoonz ( $98 )
Seat 6: ONEpt618 ( $177.80 )
Seat 4: Beelzeboz0 ( $200 )
Seat 5: fghtffyrdmns ( $200 )
Mkoonz posts small blind [$1].
Beelzeboz0 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Beelzeboz0 [ As Js ]

ONEpt618 calls [$2].
JCKFISHER calls [$2].
mikov1 folds.
Mkoonz calls [$1].
Beelzeboz0 raises [$9].
ONEpt618 calls [$9].
JCKFISHER calls [$9].
Mkoonz folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, 7h, 7c ]

Beelzeboz0 bets [$22].
ONEpt618 folds.
JCKFISHER calls [$22].

** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]

Beelzeboz0 bets [$37].
JCKFISHER is all-In [$221.16]
Beelzeboz0 folds.

JCKFISHER does not show cards.
JCKFISHER wins $335.16

I played this optimally right?
06-20-2006, 01:35 PM
aislephive

I would probably check/fold the turn. There are no draws on the board at all, he probably has a 7. If he has an ace he probably is looking to show his hand down cheaply. We don't beat AT now either, so I'm checking here and folding to a significant bet.
06-20-2006, 03:17 PM
Renton

an ace would bet the turn if I checked though
06-20-2006, 03:47 PM
allLiving

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

I would probably check/fold the turn.

That's so incredibly weak-tight...

You played it perfectly renton.
06-20-2006, 04:10 PM
johnny_fish

I'd c/c or c/f the turn. A9- would usually check it behind.
06-21-2006, 12:44 AM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

I would probably check/fold the turn.

That's so incredibly weak-tight...

You played it perfectly renton.

It's not weak tight, it's called not spewing chips. I may check call one bet on the turn but there's really no point in betting.
06-21-2006, 01:26 AM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

I would probably check/fold the turn.

That's so incredibly weak-tight...

You played it perfectly renton.

lol @ your recent posts

its not weak tight. its wa/wb, checking turn is best.

you could also check flop sometimes
06-21-2006, 04:54 AM
Renton

as much as these party 200nl-ers love to float, I don't see how checking the turn is an option.

Doesn't it give a lower ace or a missed pair too easy of a chance to knock me out of the hand?

Its only a three way pot, so it isn't like the only thing that calls me on that flop is something that beats me. I continuation bet paired flops three-way all the time. I think missed pairs call here a lot, and if I check the turn it gives them free range to push me off my hand.
06-21-2006, 05:31 AM
Robert

Check turn. Weaker aces will almost always check behind here.
06-21-2006, 11:57 AM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Doesn't it give a lower ace or a missed pair too easy of a chance to knock me out of the hand?

check doesn't necessarily mean check fold
06-21-2006, 12:21 PM
dsaxton

This turn bet is horrendous. I really don't see what it could possibly accomplish aside losing more to trips.

Check turn and then make a decision based on the size of his bet.
06-21-2006, 12:51 PM
Renton

i am starting to wonder what the responses would've been had I simply posted the hand up to my decision on the turn
06-21-2006, 01:19 PM
Ravageur

I think you played it fine. Check calling turn and river will probably cost you more, and in this case you know you're beat and you got away from it BECAUSE you chose to bet the turn. I don't see the problem with betting the turn. Sure check/call is an option, but check/fold is indeed weak at party nl 200 on this board.

Nh.
06-21-2006, 01:26 PM
LimpinAintEZ

looks like you played it perfectly to me renton - Good job - Top pair good kicker at 6 max, definitely bet the turn -
06-21-2006, 02:02 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

i am starting to wonder what the responses would've been had I simply posted the hand up to my decision on the turn

dude you can say we are being results oriented all you want, but start checking in that spot and you will see how the hand plays so much easier
06-21-2006, 02:19 PM
Renton

so when I check, this player who I presume to be an avg 200nl player (no reads here), floats the turn for 3/4 pot a very significant percentage of the time.

How is that easy?
06-21-2006, 02:39 PM
dsaxton

So, you think betting is good because it will cause a floater to fold instead of bluffing the turn? I don't get it.

Anyways, assuming that a "float" is even remotely likely in this situation is pretty absurd. It's a rare play, especially from $200NL donkeys who only think about their own cards.

And I'm not being resulted-oriented at all. A turn check in this spot is extremely standard.
06-21-2006, 02:42 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

an avg 200nl player (no reads here) floats the turn for 3/4 pot a very significant percentage of the time.

doubt it
06-21-2006, 02:49 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Anyways, assuming that a "float" is even remotely likely in this situation is pretty absurd. It's a rare play, especially from $200NL donkeys who only think about their own cards.

No, a bet flop check turn almost always elicits a bet from most of these players.

Thats why bet flop check turn is such a great line to use for made hands.
06-21-2006, 02:51 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Thats why bet flop check turn is such a great line to use for made hands.

Don't you have a made hand?
06-21-2006, 03:04 PM
Renton

so in other words you are saying you would have check/called any reasonable bet here saxton?
06-21-2006, 03:10 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

so in other words you are saying you would have check/called any reasonable bet here saxton?

No. I'd probably fold to a substantial bet. Even if I'm occasionally folding the best hand, it's not worth it to risk paying off trips to the river.

And if a player wants to try making plays in spots such as this, that's fine. He's taking bad risks, and I'll eventually bust him.
06-21-2006, 03:23 PM
Renton

so how good does my ace have to be here for a turn block bet to be necessary, if at all?
06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
Ravageur

Wow, I'm as shocked as Renton by these responses. I don't know how much party 200 6 max you guys play, but here's something I'm sure of and plz feel free to experiment with this to prove us wrong.

If you raise PF, c-bet flop, get called and then check it to villain on turn, I would be confident in saying that 70% of the time they will bet it (I wonder if there's a way on Poker Tracker to check this) regardless of if they're on a draw or with a better hand. At these stakes it's a welcome invitation to steal it on the turn. Mediocre players DO float at these stakes for just this reason.

Again, I think you played this perfectly. The guy is on hearts just as much as he has trips in this situation IMO which is why your check/fold on river is good. I'd probably call any <pot sized bet on a non heart river there.
06-21-2006, 04:27 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

Again, I think you played this perfectly. The guy is on hearts just as much as he has trips in this situation IMO which is why your check/fold on river is good. I'd probably call any <pot sized bet on a non heart river there.

No the flush draw didn't come till the turn, and the bet/fold is on the turn, not the river.

He either has an A, trips, or a missed medium pocket pair after calling that flop bet.
06-21-2006, 04:53 PM
bdawg56kg

Renton, why did you bet the turn? To make your decision easier? For information?
06-21-2006, 04:56 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

He either has an A, trips, or a missed medium pocket pair after calling that flop bet.

i think he has a medium pair about 1% of the time here, not enuogh to worry about. you raised out of the blinds, he doesn't put you on KQ much.
06-21-2006, 05:31 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Renton, why did you bet the turn? To make your decision easier? For information?

For value and as a block bet.
06-22-2006, 02:04 AM
aislephive

There really just is no point in betting the turn at all here. You probably fold out weaker aces with a turn bet, weaker aces that are probably drawing dead or close it. You obviously aren't getting any better hands to fold either. If you check and he checks behind I would bet 1/2 pot on the river and fold to a raise. It's not all that likely that he is going to float you in a multiway pot after you raise out of the blinds. I would check the turn and possibly call one bet and then fold to a big river bet.
06-22-2006, 03:08 AM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

There really just is no point in betting the turn at all here. You probably fold out weaker aces with a turn bet, weaker aces that are probably drawing dead or close it. You obviously aren't getting any better hands to fold either. If you check and he checks behind I would bet 1/2 pot on the river and fold to a raise. It's not all that likely that he is going to float you in a multiway pot after you raise out of the blinds. I would check the turn and possibly call one bet and then fold to a big river bet.

This is what I was getting at. Value-betting this turn is razor thin, and something I wouldn't do against an unknown, which is why I prefer checking and seeing what he does. Well put ais.
06-22-2006, 05:58 AM
Renton

I appreciate all the responses. I am not trying to be defensive about how I played the hand. I wouldn't have posted it unless there was a part of me that thought he shouldn't have bet the turn here.

I think that my analysis erred to the side of assuming my player was a complete donk, but honestly, I think bdawg and aislephive's analysis err to the side of assuming my player is better than he probably is. "He folds weaker aces" is truly absurd if we are talking about the average 200nl player on party. Most players would call me down with A9-A6 here at least to the river.
06-22-2006, 06:38 AM
natdang

I think floating is likely here also - I can almost guarantee that if hero checks the turn, villain will bet. What then? We have no more information.

I think villain often bets out with A7-AT, sensing that you've gotten off the gas. As does middle PP, trip 7's, or even KQ. I don't see why we give villain credit for a hand and check the turn, just because he didn't autofold to a c-bet. Oftentimes, people won't fold to your c-bet. I don't usually give up control of the hand immediately.

I think the turn bet is for value (weaker A might call), and for information/blocking as well. Dude with KQ or weak A will fold here, but pot is big as is, and what makes you think you'll get any more out of them on the river? Why give a free card and a chance to spike the kicker? If the weak A won't call a bet on the turn, why would they call one on the river unless they improve?
06-22-2006, 11:47 AM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by natdang

I think floating is likely here also - I can almost guarantee that if hero checks the turn, villain will bet. What then? We have no more information.

I think villain often bets out with A7-AT, sensing that you've gotten off the gas. As does middle PP, trip 7's, or even KQ. I don't see why we give villain credit for a hand and check the turn, just because he didn't autofold to a c-bet. Oftentimes, people won't fold to your c-bet. I don't usually give up control of the hand immediately.

I think the turn bet is for value (weaker A might call), and for information/blocking as well. Dude with KQ or weak A will fold here, but pot is big as is, and what makes you think you'll get any more out of them on the river? Why give a free card and a chance to spike the kicker? If the weak A won't call a bet on the turn, why would they call one on the river unless they improve?

What information do you need honestly? And at what cost?

I don't think most players are capable of leading with a flopped boat or even trips. "Floating" is much different when the pot is HU, and if the pot was HU in this hand it would be a totally different story. But you raise out of the blinds and get two callers, and you think one of these guys is going to float you? Raising from the blinds shows a lot of strength.

The turn bet has almost no value at all because we can't bet the river safely. Our only purpose of this turn bet is to see a cheap showdown, which will happen if he has a weak ace, but we really can't call a river bet especially after we bet the turn. Giving a free card is not really something we're worried about here, what does he have three outs at best if he is behind? And that's assuming he has A8 or better, A6-A2 is drawing dead to a split. You're really only going to be able to get one more bet out of the weak ace, either by check/calling the turn, or checking the turn and betting the river, or of course to bet the turn and check/fold river. At least when you do the first two options you get to see a cheap showdown.