another call down

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08-03-2006, 12:02 AM
gabe

another call down

first full orbit at table, no reads, comments?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($400)
BB ($487.70)
Hero ($400)
MP ($587.50)
CO ($990.10)
Button ($538.74)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, Button calls $16, 2 folds.

Flop: ($38) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $26, Button calls $26.

Turn: ($90) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $55, Hero calls $55.

River: ($200) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $125, Hero calls $125.

Final Pot: $450
08-03-2006, 12:15 AM
andy-akb

These are spots Im not that good at, and Id probably play it similarly to this in the heat of the moment.

On the flop though Im definitely potting that, too many draws that will call a smaller bet. Yes, they will call that smaller bet incorrectly, but we are OOP with a very vulnerable hand and I would rather just take it down here so we dont get put into a tough spot like this with a pot that keeps getting bigger.

Now, checking this flop si going to get bets a very high percentage of the time from our opponent and it wont really tell us anything because he could easily be floating or value betting and we dont know.

What about leading this turn for $60ish and folding to a raise and check/folding a non 9 river if he calls our bet?
08-03-2006, 12:20 AM
bair

i play it the same way...the river helps your hand, if i call the turn i call the river.
08-03-2006, 12:49 AM
Irisheyes

I think it's ok.

PS. wtf are you playing 400NL for? Please go away from my tables, I like to win tyvm.
08-03-2006, 12:50 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by bair

i play it the same way...the river helps your hand, if i call the turn i call the river.

I agree that we cant fold this river as played, but do you think a c/c is the best line on the turn seeing as we dont know the river is bringing another Q. If the river brings a complete brick, we check and he bets agains what do we do?
08-03-2006, 12:58 AM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I think it's ok.

PS. wtf are you playing 400NL for? Please go away from my tables, I like to win tyvm.

cashout curse!!!!!!!
08-03-2006, 01:04 AM
johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I think it's ok.

PS. wtf are you playing 400NL for? Please go away from my tables, I like to win tyvm.

cashout curse!!!!!!!

lol, it's sooo rigged..

What's your winrate at 2/4 Gabe? Is it even possible to run >4 ptbb/100 long term there?
08-03-2006, 01:11 AM
gabe

from what ive heard, it is possible. i cant say for sure because ive only played about 30k hands there life time and that databse is on a different computer anyway.

btw, is your name on party johnny with a number after it?
08-03-2006, 01:20 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

What's your winrate at 2/4 Gabe? Is it even possible to run >4 ptbb/100 long term there?

I cant speak for Gabe, but 4+ptbb/100 is definitely sustainable at $400nl and up. I dont say this from personal experience obviously but even at the $2knl games there are long term winners with higher winrates than that.

Oh and what do you guys think about my earlier post in this thread?
08-03-2006, 01:21 AM
johnny_fish

Yeah, johnny2912.

The hand seems fine btw, although the river bet is weird.
08-03-2006, 05:02 AM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I think it's ok.

PS. wtf are you playing 400NL for? Please go away from my tables, I like to win tyvm.

cashout curse!!!!!!!

lol, it's sooo rigged..

What's your winrate at 2/4 Gabe? Is it even possible to run >4 ptbb/100 long term there?

Man I have been trying so hard to attain a number like this and I'm getting stuck. I dunno what the funk to do.

Currently I am 1.38ptBB/100 at 400NL on party over 72k hands (95% of these hands were played before the new Monster Promotion). Now when I factor in the money I lose to the Monster, I am a 0.38ptBB/100 winner at 400NL. Basically I am a breakeven player. I need to bump my winrate drasticly.

After serious thought I'm beginning to think that the key to a 2ptBB/100 wr is solid TAG play. And the key to any ptBB's above that is stealthy deception and some serious bluffing skills which I don't possess. Does this sound about right to anyone?

What is the magic trick I need to discover to kill this game?

(sorry for the hijack gabe)
08-03-2006, 05:53 AM
johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

After serious thought I'm beginning to think that the key to a 2ptBB/100 wr is solid TAG play. And the key to any ptBB's above that is stealthy deception and some serious bluffing skills which I don't possess. Does this sound about right to anyone?

Yeah.. After 66K hands I'm at 1.71 ptBB/100. I feel I'm breaking even vs. the regular/decent players and the few stacks I win come from fish. It sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

What is the magic trick I need to discover to kill this game?

The biggest difference imo between average and good players is great (hand)reading so they can play their marginal hands better; they can take them further (instead of making weak folds early or controlling potsize). e.g. http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40166.htm
08-03-2006, 06:57 AM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

After serious thought I'm beginning to think that the key to a 2ptBB/100 wr is solid TAG play. And the key to any ptBB's above that is stealthy deception and some serious bluffing skills which I don't possess. Does this sound about right to anyone?

Yeah.. After 66K hands I'm at 1.71 ptBB/100. I feel I'm breaking even vs. the regular/decent players and the few stacks I win come from fish. It sucks.

Ya I feel the same.
08-03-2006, 11:22 AM
Cocco_Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Is it even possible to run >4 ptbb/100 long term there?

I am fairly sure that a world class player could beat that game for close to 10ptbb/100 long term.
08-03-2006, 01:53 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

What is the magic trick I need to discover to kill this game?

table selection and run better
08-03-2006, 02:39 PM
Irisheyes

ok so how do I table select?

I just sit down at a few tables and if I see >2 or 3 regulars I leave immediatly. Otherwise I play there for a while till I get proper stats on the table and basically if the vpip isn't high ehough I'll leave and try a different table.
08-03-2006, 03:23 PM
gabe

sounds like you need to take the second piece of advice
08-03-2006, 03:38 PM
Lukie

Irish, from the small amount of hands I played with you, it seemed like you played very predictably. I wasn't watching you very closely at all (in fact, at the time I didn't even know it was you), but it seemed like after you'd raise preflop, you wouldn't be attacking the pot at all unless you got a big part of it. Meaning you'd sometimes fire 1 barrell and give up if you missed, sometimes you wouldn't fire at it at all. This might not apply to the others in the game, but to me personally, it seemed like you played very straight up, were easy to put on a hand, and you pretty much played like I expected you to. Then again I play many tables and don't even use a HUD, so take it for what it's worth.
08-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better
08-03-2006, 03:58 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Irish, from the small amount of hands I played with you, it seemed like you played very predictably

I feel this is true.
08-03-2006, 04:00 PM
johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Irish, from the small amount of hands I played with you, it seemed like you played very predictably

I feel this is true.

I guess I might be predictable too, although I'm 2nd barreling whenever I get the chance. The main problem I see lately is that I'm not getting enough action on my good hands.
08-03-2006, 04:07 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it also doesnt give you enough to work if your post flop skills arent good enough (irish's own words)

Irish, have you ever considered going to 100nl and raising any two for half an hour and trying to manipulate pot size/etc to work on marginal hands?
I think your bet bet bet or bet check fold lines make you too easy to put on hands.
08-03-2006, 04:08 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it is.
08-03-2006, 04:11 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Irish, have you ever considered going to 100nl and raising any two for half an hour and trying to manipulate pot size/etc to work on marginal hands?

Also, call some c-bets with 2-outers, bottom pair and even total air. Then play from there. You'll learn a lot about how poor players tip hands.
08-03-2006, 04:36 PM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it is.

No it's not.

But you can still do.
08-03-2006, 04:57 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Irish, from the small amount of hands I played with you, it seemed like you played very predictably. I wasn't watching you very closely at all (in fact, at the time I didn't even know it was you), but it seemed like after you'd raise preflop, you wouldn't be attacking the pot at all unless you got a big part of it. Meaning you'd sometimes fire 1 barrell and give up if you missed, sometimes you wouldn't fire at it at all. This might not apply to the others in the game, but to me personally, it seemed like you played very straight up, were easy to put on a hand, and you pretty much played like I expected you to. Then again I play many tables and don't even use a HUD, so take it for what it's worth.

Shit I was starting to worry about predictibility recently didn't realise it was this bad. Basically you have just summed up my whole game in one post.

I've actually taken a day off today and I've been thinking about stuff like this. I have come up with some ideas.

1) I need to learn about double barreling. It is basically non existent in my game. Basically because I don't understand the whens, hows and whys of it.

2) About the cbetting thing. When I first started playing 400NL i was cbetting way kore flops the I do now and basically I felt like I was spewing chips all over the place. If I could play some turn cards I could improve this though. At the moment I'm cbetting A/K high flops and reletivly draw free J and T high flops. But thats about it and it's not enough.

3) I've come to the conclusion that I need to start raising more flops with wider ranges of hands. Both for deception and because I'm plain giving up too much value at the moment.

I'm gonna start raising the pfraiser with stuff like TT on Q95 flops, also do the same with sets and draws. Basically I'm seeing far too many streets when I hold monster hands because I have no where near the image required to get the money in faster. I'm unsure how to create this image without turning my poker game into a spewfest.

4) Bluffing is also nearly nonexistant in my game. I do try, and lately I feel that it's something I've been getting better at. It just feels like every time I try to bluff I end up getting called. Clearly I'm making mistakes here too.

Thats my thoughts at the moment. Sorry for turning this thread into my own personal poker clinic but that post openend my eyes Lukie.
08-03-2006, 04:59 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Irish, have you ever considered going to 100nl and raising any two for half an hour and trying to manipulate pot size/etc to work on marginal hands?

Also, call some c-bets with 2-outers, bottom pair and even total air. Then play from there. You'll learn a lot about how poor players tip hands.

Ya I really need to start doing this it's true.
08-03-2006, 05:00 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it also doesnt give you enough to work if your post flop skills arent good enough (irish's own words)

Irish, have you ever considered going to 100nl and raising any two for half an hour and trying to manipulate pot size/etc to work on marginal hands?
I think your bet bet bet or bet check fold lines make you too easy to put on hands.

No but I'm gonna go do it now in a couple of minutes.
08-03-2006, 05:31 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it is.

No it's not.

But you can still do.

whatever
08-03-2006, 05:46 PM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Datamine 12 tables ½-1 hour before you start playing and then you can use the datamined data to table select better

That's not allowed anymore at Party..

it is.

No it's not.

But you can still do.

whatever

I just heard party was way against datamining, but people do it all the time so I guess it's not a big deal. I used to datamine (using the PHG software) a lot as well.
08-04-2006, 03:13 AM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm gonna start raising the pfraiser with stuff like TT on Q95 flops, also do the same with sets and draws.

Why raise a Q95 flop with TT? You are turning your hand into a bluff. Sets and draws, sure, but hands like TPMK, middle pair, calling is much more +EV than raising. (You probably know this, but phrased your statement wrong.)

Irish, a couple things that I've found which helped my game: reraising more preflop (I still probably don't do it enough), and cutting down my c-bets a lot against fish.
08-04-2006, 06:38 PM
Lukie

There is one new player in your game that plays incredibly well, and probably resembles more of a 10/20 player then a 2/4 player. He comes off as an overaggro donkey sometimes, but he's really quite good. Try playing more like him.
08-04-2006, 07:35 PM
gabe

wtf does that mean
08-04-2006, 09:58 PM
Lukie

I'm about 99% sure he'll know who I'm talking about.
08-05-2006, 03:09 AM
Irisheyes

Who? Best player I eva saw at 2/4 was WokkieWokkie but he's gone.

btw if you say your own SN you suck big stylee. What is your SN actually?
08-05-2006, 03:12 AM
gabe

ive played with wokkiewokkie some at 5/10. that was the first time i ever won a 400bb pot :)
08-05-2006, 05:17 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Who? Best player I eva saw at 2/4 was WokkieWokkie but he's gone.

btw if you say your own SN you suck big stylee. What is your SN actually?

I'm Lukieplaya on PokerStars.
08-05-2006, 05:42 AM
Irisheyes

lol Thats not much use to me. Whats your Party SN? "BigSecret"?
08-05-2006, 05:00 PM
Lukie

Yes, it is a big secret. :)

In all seriousness, judging from all the FTR regs I've played with from NL100 through NL400 on pokerstars, I think it's in my best interest to not share what my party screenname is.
08-05-2006, 05:01 PM
gabe

i used to think that but i realized i just got more action
08-06-2006, 05:31 AM
Lukie

partydonks give me plenty of action.
08-08-2006, 10:41 PM
gabe

results: he had AJ, i win