Difficult KK hand

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08-09-2006, 09:00 AM
Tom42

Difficult KK hand

I hadn't played with villain before, seems decent, hadn't gone out of line.

50NL on everest. I'm UTG with KdKc and a stack of 50$, villain is on my left and has $ 49.50.

Preflop : I raise to $ 1.75 , villain calls, rest folds.

Flop (5s Qh Qd): I check, villain checks.

Turn (3d): I bet $2.75. Villain raises to $12.50. I raise $21.75 to $ 24.50.
Villain raises all-in to $ 47.75. I fold.

I was going for the check-raise on the flop. Villain checked behind.

Is the turn three bet spewage?

I'm interested in what you would do in a situation like this. A call puts me in a though spot on the river since I'm OOP, and folding is weak. Villain could be raising me with anything after the flop action.
08-09-2006, 10:26 AM
Irisheyes

I don't like this.

My usual line is just bet the flop. If he calls I'll check/call the turn (because this stops him getting a raise in), then I'll check the river and decide whether I wan't to showdown by the size of his river bet if there is one.

I don't like your 3bet because hands that we beat like TT will fold here and Queens will call.
08-09-2006, 10:41 AM
Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

My usual line is just bet the flop. If he calls I'll check/call the turn (because this stops him getting a raise in), then I'll check the river and decide whether I wan't to showdown by the size of his river bet if there is one.

Yes, i like this line. But what would you do If he raises your flop bet?
08-09-2006, 10:46 AM
andy-akb

You are the PFRer, what makes you expect a bet out of villain when you check the flop? If you raised and had missed this flop would you bet here?

Personally, I dont hate a flop check, but not because Id be going for a c/r, but because its a WA/WB situation. I do probably bet this flop though since its so likely we are way ahead and because I nearly always cbet paired boards when I miss, so I need to do the same with made hands.

I agree with what Irisheyes said about the turn and river line. I really dont like the 3bet unless you have a read that you are going to get a call from a worse hand which you wont if villain really is decent [what do you mean by decent though?].

How do we play this if we lead the flop and get raised?
08-09-2006, 11:08 AM
Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

You are the PFRer, what makes you expect a bet out of villain when you check the flop? If you raised and had missed this flop would you bet here?

Well, it's a perfect flop to bluff at, so I expect villain to bet a lot of the time with nothing or a pocket pair. I would C-bet yes, so i should do the same with a hand, good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Personally, I dont hate a flop check, but not because Id be going for a c/r, but because its a WA/WB situation.

Yes, but If I just call, I basicly have no info about villains hand. I was going to check-raise because it defines villains hand better and I can get away from it without having invested to much. If he calls I am very suspicious. I don't mind a fold, but I'm probably losing value then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I agree with what Irisheyes said about the turn and river line. I really dont like the 3bet unless you have a read that you are going to get a call from a worse hand which you wont if villain really is decent [what do you mean by decent though?].

I agree, and reëvaluate on the river. Decent as in he buys in full, he raises as he should, and hasn't done anything stupid. I didn't have a good read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

How do we play this if we lead the flop and get raised?

Yes, that's what I don't know. I think a queen would just call a lot of the time. A raise could be anything I guess.
08-09-2006, 11:17 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Personally, I dont hate a flop check, but not because Id be going for a c/r, but because its a WA/WB situation.

Yes, but If I just call, I basicly have no info about villains hand. I was going to check-raise because it defines villains hand better and I can get away from it without having invested to much. If he calls I am very suspecious. I don't mind a fold, but I'm probably losing value then.

What info do you need about this though? He either has a Q or he is drawing very thin, unless you think he could have AA. You learn enough by seeing how he plays the next streets. Say you check/call the flop, and check/call the turn, do you think he is going to bet for a third time without a queen after you have shown you want to get to showdown?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I agree with what Irisheyes said about the turn and river line. I really dont like the 3bet unless you have a read that you are going to get a call from a worse hand which you wont if villain really is decent [what do you mean by decent though?].

I agree, and reëvaluate on the river. Decent as in he buys in full, he raises as he should, and hasn't done anything stupid. I didn't have a good read.

It seems like you dont use a HUD, which is something you definitely should look into [PokerTracker + PAHUD is a great combo]. One more question about this though, hwat do you mean he raises as he "should." I assume you must mean he is fairly TAGG, but not too aggressive. Just remember that there is no right and wrong style, at the higher stakes youll find players that look like complete maniacs but are really some of the biggest winners at the games.
08-09-2006, 11:37 AM
Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

What info do you need about this though? He either has a Q or he is drawing very thin, unless you think he could have AA. You learn enough by seeing how he plays the next streets. Say you check/call the flop, and check/call the turn, do you think he is going to bet for a third time without a queen after you have shown you want to get to showdown?

This is something I'll have to work on, I too often choose info over value in these situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom42

It seems like you dont use a HUD, which is something you definitely should look into [PokerTracker + PAHUD is a great combo]. One more question about this though, hwat do you mean he raises as he "should." I assume you must mean he is fairly TAGG, but not too aggressive. Just remember that there is no right and wrong style, at the higher stakes youll find players that look like complete maniacs but are really some of the biggest winners at the games.

The site I play on doesn't support Pokertracker, i'll definitely get it when I move to another site. And yes I mean TAGG, he knows how to kill odds, no stupid min-raises, raises frequently preflop but not too much etc...

Thx for the replies.
08-09-2006, 11:42 AM
Renton

Bet the flop 100% of the time here.

No need to even mix it up: the very act of betting this flop is "mixing it up" enough, because you will often be betting with nothing in this spot, and an aware villain is going to know that. So, checking accomplishes nothing because he'll usually call a flop bet with a missed pocket pair or ace high anyway.
08-09-2006, 01:35 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

My usual line is just bet the flop. If he calls I'll check/call the turn (because this stops him getting a raise in), then I'll check the river and decide whether I wan't to showdown by the size of his river bet if there is one.

Yes, i like this line. But what would you do If he raises your flop bet?

Call and reconsider on the turn by how eager he is to get his $$ in.