KK vs. lag

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08-30-2006, 12:57 AM
NLHE lahooozaher

KK vs. lag

villain is not good but is loose/aggressive. How's my line?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($36.83)
Hero ($49.75)
MP ($53.50)
Button ($41.45)
SB ($10.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($10.75) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button calls $7.

River: ($24.75) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $39.75
08-30-2006, 12:59 AM
aislephive

Flop check is good. Turn bet is bad, what's the point of it? I would check call again or check fold. On the river given that it's another ace I'd tend to call for slightly over half pot there, if anything for info.
08-30-2006, 10:05 AM
r8ed

If you are going to bet the turn make it $3 as a blocking bet / see where I'm at bet. I think a check is preferably. I call the river - especially if you get there cheaper and they bet 1/2 pot. Looks like a weak Ace however.
08-30-2006, 10:36 AM
euphoricism

Flop check is good!?

I pot it on the flop. If villain calls, I pretty much know I'm beat and can check/fold the turn. It often gives me a look at the river as well too when villain checks behind turn.

Thoughts on that line?
08-30-2006, 10:41 AM
Renton

idk, i just bet the flop and check call/fold the turn
08-30-2006, 11:01 AM
andy-akb

Why would we bet this flop? You simply will not be called here often enough by a hand that doesnt have an Ace. The fact that we are against a LAGG player I think is even more reason to check becuase he could raise our bet with a worse hand making us fold.

Personally I would probably c/c flop and turn and c/f the river, on this river though I think a call may have some merit, its fairly opponent dependent.
08-30-2006, 11:10 AM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would we bet this flop? You simply will not be called here often enough by a hand that doesnt have an Ace. The fact that we are against a LAGG player I think is even more reason to check becuase he could raise our bet with a worse hand making us fold.

Personally I would probably c/c flop and turn and c/f the river, on this river though I think a call may have some merit, its fairly opponent dependent.

wouldn't we bet the flop if we had an ace?

This is the reason why we should bet the flop.
08-30-2006, 11:39 AM
samsonite2100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would we bet this flop? You simply will not be called here often enough by a hand that doesnt have an Ace. The fact that we are against a LAGG player I think is even more reason to check becuase he could raise our bet with a worse hand making us fold.

Personally I would probably c/c flop and turn and c/f the river, on this river though I think a call may have some merit, its fairly opponent dependent.

wouldn't we bet the flop if we had an ace?

This is the reason why we should bet the flop.

Why? So we can rep aces in order to fold out all other potentially decent hands? We want hands like TT taking a stab at this pot. I think Andy's line is pretty good, although what about c/c flop and turn and then value/block bet river?
08-30-2006, 11:46 AM
benny999

I posted a similar hand recently. The point of checking here is most times no worse hands will call a flop lead, but they will bluff if you check. You can balance out by sometimes checking an ace or AAA, but the other logic is people are naturally afraid of you slow playing AAA if you check call a strong flop bet and they were bluffing. So most don't bluff again on the turn. So check calling 1-2 bluffs maximizes ev.

And there's an interesting thread on this - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm
08-30-2006, 11:50 AM
biondino

We're fucked. It's a Lagg, he has position, in all likelihood he has any ace, unless we fancy re-raising he flop big he's not getting out of this pot. We can't call three bets to the river, so we're folding at some point. Might as well take a stab at the flop, or check/fold there and then.
08-30-2006, 12:05 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would we bet this flop? You simply will not be called here often enough by a hand that doesnt have an Ace. The fact that we are against a LAGG player I think is even more reason to check becuase he could raise our bet with a worse hand making us fold.

Personally I would probably c/c flop and turn and c/f the river, on this river though I think a call may have some merit, its fairly opponent dependent.

wouldn't we bet the flop if we had an ace?

This is the reason why we should bet the flop.

I think you are looking at it backwards. Betting KK here is not good simply because of what we are trying to represent [as I think samsonite was saying] and what hands it will fold and what hands will call. Getting value out of KK and not putting a lot in when behind should be a big priority, bigger than getting value out of a hand like a weak ace. Because of this, I am going to be checking a weak ace on this flop to balance it out.
Not even considering the effect it wouyld have on KK, we still shouldnt always bet Ax here simply ebcause the board is dry and we dont always want a big pot OOP with TPWK

So basically, no. I do not always bet this flop if I have an ace and I dont think you should be either.
08-30-2006, 12:05 PM
samsonite2100

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

We're fucked. It's a Lagg, he has position, in all likelihood he has any ace, unless we fancy re-raising he flop big he's not getting out of this pot. We can't call three bets to the river, so we're folding at some point. Might as well take a stab at the flop, or check/fold there and then.

If you're this worried about giving up position to a Lagg, the last thing you want to do is stab at the flop. Let him put $$ in, as is his nature. And there's no telling what he has--why would we assume he has an A?

I mean, if he's willing to fire a hard third shot on the river, then we probably have to fold, but I think a passive call down line here can take a surprising amount of money from a bad lagg.
08-30-2006, 01:48 PM
benny999

Good point biondino...OP- wtf, sit to the lag's left :)

seriously though, don't be afraid to let the lag bluff at it, it is a rare (but usually very easily exploitable) breed that will fire 3 big barrels at this board without the A, let alone 2 consecutive.
08-30-2006, 02:09 PM
Laeelin

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

I posted a similar hand recently. The point of checking here is most times no worse hands will call a flop lead, but they will bluff if you check. You can balance out by sometimes checking an ace or AAA, but the other logic is people are naturally afraid of you slow playing AAA if you check call a strong flop bet and they were bluffing. So most don't bluff again on the turn. So check calling 1-2 bluffs maximizes ev.

And there's an interesting thread on this - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

Thanks for the link, great thread!
08-30-2006, 02:17 PM
r8ed

This comes up every 2-3 months and that thread is referenced and once everybody reads through it, they have a very hard time disagreeing. It should be stickied.
08-30-2006, 04:57 PM
benny999

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

This comes up every 2-3 months and that thread is referenced and once everybody reads through it, they have a very hard time disagreeing. It should be stickied.

definitely.