Oh no, what have I done?

The SB in this hand was one of the worst players I've seen in a long time. On a previous hand I raised pre-flop, he called from the big blind and potted a rag flop, I raised all-in with two overcards and a flush draw and he insta-called with 23o for bottom pair which held up. He's since lost most of it back but has about $75 left (this is 1/2 and we're 4-handed).

I get dealt AA and make it $7 from the CO which I've been doing a lot, donkey min-raises to $12 which he's also been doing a lot, and a guy who just sat down with $200 cold-calls from the BB (I cover the table). I just call because I want to stack the donkey and don't want to blow him out of the pot. The flop is 2:spade: 9:club: T:club:. I have the ace of clubs if that matters. Donkey leads for $20, BB calls, I make it $70, donkey calls all-in, BB shoves. What have I gotten myself into?

poor preflop play= getting stacked.

to be honest, i dont ever think 'im going to call just because their is a fish involved' i 3bet it and play the hand in the correct manner.

Its an easy fold on the flop.

isnt KK as likely as a set in this situation

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

poor preflop play= getting stacked.

to be honest, i dont ever think 'im going to call just because their is a fish involved' i 3bet it and play the hand in the correct manner.

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This is way off IMO.

Edit: I mean that the idea that it's "incorrect" to ever not 3-bet AA in a multiway pot is way off. It's possible that I didn't choose a good spot to do so or didn't have a good reason.

I think this is the time to reraise preflop. An unknown entering this hand is trouble. If you hit an ace they most likely don't have one and it may be hard to get money from unknown. If they hit, you can get into a tough situation like this. So, the risk reward bringing him along doesn't seem to be there - especially without a read. Donkey will probably call your reraise anyway - if they are willing to go the distance w/ bottom pair no kicker, they are willing to get it all in w/ most hands they reraise you with.

As played, I think this is a call. I think unknown just called hoping to see a turn w/ his odds to draw. Then when you reraise, he figures he has outs plus dead money plus fold equity.

1) I don't think PF is necessarily bad. Hero had a good reason for making an unorthodox play and more often than not, I think this works out in Hero's favor.

2) Easy call. Hero is getting ~3.5 to 1 here with AA on the flop. Villain's possible all-in range here includes KK/QQ/JJ/AT and all manner of club and straight draws.

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Originally Posted by r8ed

I think this is the time to reraise preflop. An unknown entering this hand is trouble. If you hit an ace they most likely don't have one and it may be hard to get money from unknown. If they hit, you can get into a tough situation like this. So, the risk reward bringing him along doesn't seem to be there - especially without a read. Donkey will probably call your reraise anyway - if they are willing to go the distance w/ bottom pair no kicker, they are willing to get it all in w/ most hands they reraise you with.

As played, I think this is a call. I think unknown just called hoping to see a turn w/ his odds to draw. Then when you reraise, he figures he has outs plus dead money plus fold equity.

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This is a very good post overall, and I think I agree with both of your points. I should mention that in a previous hand when we were deeper-stacked, I had raised to $7 with KK, he did the goofy min-reraise, and I made it $35 and he folded. So I wouldn't assume I'll get all-in here if I 3-bet, he might have garbage.

I did end up calling because I had the same read as you, that he was likely to have a drawing hand and thought he could blow me out of the pot. I do think I'm going to get shown a set here a fair bit of the time, but often enough to fold? I didn't think so although I could be wrong.

i wouldnt fold this, the BB could easily be hoping the donkey calls with a bad pair and you fold.

try to build the pot vs calling station donkeys preflop when you have AA.

BB doesn't know donkey is a donkey...yet.

oooh good point, i still probably call though

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

I mean that the idea that it's "incorrect" to ever not 3-bet AA in a multiway pot is way off. It's possible that I didn't choose a good spot to do so or didn't have a good reason.

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agreed

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

poor preflop play= getting stacked.

to be honest, i dont ever think 'im going to call just because their is a fish involved' i 3bet it and play the hand in the correct manner.

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This is way off IMO.

Edit: I mean that the idea that it's "incorrect" to ever not 3-bet AA in a multiway pot is way off. It's possible that I didn't choose a good spot to do so or didn't have a good reason.

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Edited:
The reraisor is a donkey, so from that i assume he calls far too much. Thats what donkeys do most often right?
If this pot were HU id totally agree with your line/thinking. But three way? How many times do we say AA/KK dont play great multiway (they play pretty well i agree, but not brilliantly)
Add to that, what is a full stack unknown going to call a minireraise with preflop then call a leading bet and then shove over a reraise on the flop? If a one pair hand was ever no good, that might be the spot imo.
I think calling even with 3.5-1 or wateva is bad there, but thats me.
(sure he may have KK/QQ but meh)
If you'd isolated preflop we could have got the donkey to put a lot of dosh in the middle way behind and got him to love this flop provided he didnt have whiffed AK or maybe TT.
I hate this preflop and the random either had TT or KK.

Don't fuck around with AA when people suck this bad. Drop a big bet, sweat it a bit when they tank, then laugh really hard when they call.... all the way to the bank.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Don't fuck around with AA when people suck this bad. Drop a big bet, sweat it a bit when they tank, then laugh really hard when they call.... all the way to the bank.

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

How many times do we say AA/KK dont play great multiway (they play pretty well i agree, but not brilliantly)

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I think that's just off, do people really think they'd rather have a suited connector than AA in a multiway pot? No matter how many people are in the pot, the best hand to have is still AA, and it's not even close.

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If you'd isolated preflop we could have got the donkey to put a lot of dosh in the middle way behind and got him to love this flop provided he didnt have whiffed AK or maybe TT.

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He did have whiffed AK and he loved it anyway.

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I hate this preflop and the random either had TT or KK.

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Nope, Q:club: J:club:.

AA is the best hand...even in multiway, but the reason it's so hard to play multiway is you have to be hit over the head very hard to lay it down. You got hit over the head hard and still didn't lay it down - which I still think is the corect play here (to call that is).

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He did have whiffed AK and he loved it anyway.

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the exact reson we should have 3 bet preflop anyway.

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I think that's just off, do people really think they'd rather have a suited connector than AA in a multiway pot? No matter how many people are in the pot, the best hand to have is still AA, and it's not even close.

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partially true but if we thought about it like this why bother raising preflop to isolate?

remember the conundrum that poker provides, you can play a hand really well and lose a lot of money or you can play it horribly and win a stack of money.
3 handed, preflop not 3betting AA is a bad decision imo no matter who the opponents (especially when a fish reraises ffs who is going to like his hand no matter what)
This isnt even close, calling here preflop was a bad decision and you might have won/lost but its badly results orientated for me.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3 handed, preflop not 3betting AA is a bad decision imo no matter who the opponents (especially when a fish reraises ffs who is going to like his hand no matter what)
This isnt even close, calling here preflop was a bad decision and you might have won/lost but its badly results orientated for me.

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LOL, I'm not being results oriented. I already conceded that I should have 3-bet against this donkey! I'm not even going to post whether I won the flip because it doesn't even matter. The point that I and many others have made in this thread is that he doesn't have to have a hand like Q:club: J:club: very often for this to be a call since I'm getting 3.5:1. Even if he has TT I win the hand 12% of the time with my two outs + a backdoor flushdraw. I think I'm definitely going to get shown TT a lot here for sure but the way the hand played out it just felt like he had a big draw and wanted fold equity.

"3 handed, preflop not 3betting AA is a bad decision imo no matter who the opponents"

I think you couldn't be any more wrong. Deception and metagame are two very good reasons to just call sometimes. When I call here with AA I have a hand that no one will put me on because like you say it doesn't get done often. I might get JJ or TT to stack off a lot more easily on a low flop where they'd be able to fold if I 3-bet. Also if you always 3-bet in a 3-way pot then when you just call, your opponents know you don't have a big pair. I think it's really bad to just give away that info. You think metagame doesn't matter but it does. People are smarter than you think especially at 1/2 and higher, if they see you just call with AA or KK in this spot they will remember that in future pots and it just makes you a tougher opponent to play against.