Underpairs OOP in raised pots theory

Effective stacks $200

You are dealt 8 :diamond: 8 :club:
Decent 24/16 TAG makes it $8 in the CO.
You call and everyone else folds.

At this point, the villians range is pretty huge. I have stats something like the TAG in this example and I raise almost 25% of my hands in this position. Thats like any pair, any Axs, any broadways, most suited connectors and a few more hands.

Pot: $17 Flop: 2 :club: 6 :diamond: J :diamond:

We check to the villian who bets $14. Again he does this with pretty much all of his preflop range. We have little extra information.

Discuss our best line(s)?

Keep in mind:
We are giving up value if we fold.
If we call he may get to see two streets to draw out.
If we raise the only hands that call are hands that beat us.
There is additional benefit in playing these hands like our sets.
Possibly leading the flop is best?
If we raise and he calls, we need a hand range and new plan for a turn card.
How our actions should change as the villians PFR stat increaces or decreaces?
Does having draws heavy boards change our action?
Does having bigger effective stacks change things?

I personally have been using the bet/fold on the flop with some success. It minimizes our risk compared to the size of the pot but the only thing I don't like about it is that we miss potential value when our opponent bluffs every flop.

I haven't quite got the whole 'when to check/raise' thing down yet but I could see that working here with success as well.

I am by no means advocating my play is correct, but I usually c/f or call down these guys, depending on their image. When calling down, I cross my fingers and hope my hand doesn't get worse with the turn and river cards.
I hate a check-raise here, because the last thing I want to do is play an inflated pot from OOP.
I like bet/fold line somewhat here too. He almost has to give you credit for at least the Jack.
Come to think of it a play I make with lots of success is the flop call with a turn lead. I usually only do this with a real hand but it seems to fold out my opponent a lot. With a flop call/turn lead if he raises the turn or bets the river, you can give him credit for a real hand. Of course when he does have a hand, you lose more $.

The main thing to consider here is that if we CR or lead and get called - then our hand has almost no showdown value and is essentially a bluff - so there is no real value in raising because we have 88. This is especially true against decent players. In this sort of situation the only small benefit that having 88 over something like 25 would be the possiblity of hitting another 8 on the turn or river.

Hole cards dont matter unless the hand goes to showdown, and if you raise and it still goes to showdown - 88 is very unlikly the best hand. The best play would probably be to C/C the flop as many players will back off on the turn unless the have the goods, or we could always represent a flush draw and see if we can push him off a better hand if the turn comes a diamond. a nice C/R would be in order if the turn came an 8.

If the turn comes an 8 and we lead - hes folding air and calling with Jacks or better - hes also bettering Jacks or better if checked too along with the possiblity of air, which makes C/R if we get an 8 more +EV than leading.

I sometimes c/c, lead turn. Sometimes c/c flop, c/f turn. Most of the time I lead. Leading is nice to balance with combodraws/sets.

Disadvantage of leading is that good Tags see it as weakness and will bluffraise the flop.

Perhaps this is a leak in my game, but I never lead into preflop raisers out of position in raised pots heads-up. I usually check-call the flop, then check-fold the turn, as most taggs aren't capable of bluffing twice after the flop.

One thing I sometimes like to do is check-call and lead out when a scare card falls, like a 3rd diamond. This has effectively stopped a bluff from my opponent, as I'm representing a very strong hand. If I'm even called, I'm farily sure I'm beat, and I usually just check-fold the river. But, I think it's important to also do this when you hit your draws to avoid exploitable patterns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Perhaps this is a leak in my game, but I never lead into preflop raisers out of position in raised pots heads-up. I usually check-call the flop, then check-fold the turn, as most taggs aren't capable of bluffing twice after the flop.

One thing I sometimes like to do is check-call and lead out when a scare card falls, like a 3rd diamond. This has effectively stopped a bluff from my opponent, as I'm representing a very strong hand. If I'm even called, I'm farily sure I'm beat, and I usually just check-fold the river. But, I think it's important to also do this when you hit your draws to avoid exploitable patterns.

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I think you're missing out on lots of value by not having this weapon in your game. A lot of the time people just give up the pot if they don't have anything and if you check every time it really makes it difficult to form a profitable situation with a small pair when you don't flop a set. I don't really like check calling in spots like that, your hand is really vulnerable and you can't take much heat if any. Occasionally you will get bluff raised, but not really too often, especially if you play many different hands that way. I also like leading with marginal hands like top pair mediocre kicker in a multiway pot, you really don't get raised unless it's by a better hand or a big drawing hand generally. This is from experience at 1/2. At higher stakes people are generally more aggressive when it comes to sensing weakness, but if you aren't incredibly transparent in your leads / checks then you should be fine.

I lead my big hands into PFRs a lot because I want to get in 3rd bets and induce loose raises/calls. To balance that I've been playing with leading more hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Perhaps this is a leak in my game, but I never lead into preflop raisers out of position in raised pots heads-up. I usually check-call the flop, then check-fold the turn, as most taggs aren't capable of bluffing twice after the flop.

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Do you not think that checking the turn and giving him room to check behind and see the river is a problem. Any A/K/Q which might fall will fit right into the range we give him when we call the flop. Effectivly he has 12 outs which freeze us up.