A hand a actually thought i played well! (for a change)

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09-18-2006, 04:16 PM
Renton

A hand a actually thought i played well! (for a change)

Villain is a fairly solid lag.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($712.45)
SB ($233.95)
BB ($200)
UTG ($718.10)
Hero ($206.05)
CO ($152.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $8, Hero raises to $25, 4 folds, UTG calls $17.

Flop: ($53) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $37, UTG calls $37.

Turn: ($127) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($127) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $45, Hero calls $144.05 (All-In), UTG calls $99.05.

Final Pot: $415.10
09-18-2006, 04:34 PM
Silly String

I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.
09-18-2006, 04:42 PM
elipsesjeff

I think getting it allin on the river isn't a bad choice here, but I probably bet the turn here as you are likely ahead. Unless you put villain on KJ or a 6...
09-18-2006, 04:55 PM
johnny_fish

nh
09-18-2006, 08:33 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.

I agree with this here. Most players arent folding a boat and you only beat a boat with a 6 and I really dont think a solid LAGG is going to be playing a 6 like this OOP and even if he were I think he could fold a 6. A solid player is also going to be folding a J here. Call.
09-18-2006, 08:46 PM
Renton

so you are saying to forgo all the value we get from hands like JJ/QQ/AA etc
09-18-2006, 08:48 PM
Ravageur

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

I don't get it. I would just call the river. What calls your bet that you are beating? I think you split this with most opponents and lose to KJ. Do you think Villain has a 6 here? I don't think a J calls this.

I agree with this here. Most players arent folding a boat and you only beat a boat with a 6 and I really dont think a solid LAGG is going to be playing a 6 like this OOP and even if he were I think he could fold a 6. A solid player is also going to be folding a J here. Call.

What if VIllain has a set of Jacks? We shouldn't necessarily presume that villain is competent without a read.
09-18-2006, 08:49 PM
Renton

not pushing this river is absolutely terrible imo
09-18-2006, 08:52 PM
Ravageur

I agree. Are we that scared of KJ? I'm probably more worried about quads than KJ.
09-18-2006, 09:26 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

not pushing this river is absolutely terrible imo
09-18-2006, 09:31 PM
Renton

i should have been more specific, i was wondering what everyone thought of the turn checkthrough (for river value). I don't think the river changes things much.
09-18-2006, 09:33 PM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

so you are saying to forgo all the value we get from hands like JJ/QQ/AA etc

I dont think a solid lagg would play JJ like this that often in a reraised pot and they would not stack off with QQ or AA.

In all honesty I dont think the differences between pushing and calling are that big. A 6 is definitely unlikely and he could fold that, a "worse" K will obviously call but them calling doesnt giuve us anymore value. We get value from JJ which is unlikely and possibly a 6 and lose to KJ which I think is more likely than JJ. Should we push here? Sure, but to say it is horrible not to is a huge exaggeration.
09-18-2006, 09:54 PM
ripjohngotti

What he have?
09-18-2006, 11:10 PM
Rondavu

There isn't much difference between calling and pushing in typical hero villain relationships. If you've opened up his calling range then of course it's a mistake not to push. Your hand is otherwise obvious, and solid opponents only call if they're taking some or all of the pot.

The extra money you're putting in is seeking a tiny edge at best if you're a tagg. I'm sure if you did the math it's barely correct to push, but it's not a huge difference to call.
09-19-2006, 09:57 AM
Silly String

Re: A hand a actually thought i played well! (for a change)

The only thing I can think of is if your metagame with this LAG will get a call from a 6 or JJ. A solid LAG would not call devoid of good reason.
There is no way you can put villain on JJ ahead of KJ. You can make KJ 16 ways but you only make JJ 6 ways. The play with each would be similar on all streets, and a LAG is fully capable of calling a pre-flop reraise with KJ.
In other words you should only push if you think a 6 will call.
I am not indicating a push to be bad with metagame concerns, but I think you only get called by a better hand if your opponent is solid. Whether or not he is solid is up to your read?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Villain is a fairly solid lag.
09-19-2006, 11:37 AM
dsaxton

Just bet the turn and allow him to lose some money. What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?
09-19-2006, 11:49 AM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.

Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.
09-19-2006, 12:07 PM
Robert

I dont want to be a dick here renton, but isnt this hand pretty standard. I know that checking the turn with a made hand in a reraised pot is pretty unorthodox, but with this board and a solid player as your opponent its clearly (imo at least) the best play.

NH man
09-19-2006, 12:24 PM
Silly String

No one seems to give the LAG credit for a 6. A lot of posters seem to be advocating betting the turn and that is going to pot commit us to a CR. So does everyone stack off here to a LAG in a re-raised pot, if the river is not a King?
09-19-2006, 12:30 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.

Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.

Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot?
09-19-2006, 04:05 PM
Harry

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Just bet the turn and allow him to lose some money. What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

I don't think check through looks like a slowplayed anything. It looks like weakness, especially to a lag. I like everything about this hand.
09-19-2006, 04:24 PM
Renton

he had QQ
09-19-2006, 04:44 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.

Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.

I agree. Checks are weak, and that's why we mix in strength. It's not the other way around.
09-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Silly String

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

he had QQ

How long did he tank before calling? Just curious.
Well played.
09-19-2006, 07:30 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

he had QQ

lol hes a fish. he beats nothing you reraise with.
09-19-2006, 07:45 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

he had QQ

How long did he tank before calling? Just curious.
Well played.

not long
09-19-2006, 07:46 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

he had QQ

lol hes a fish. he beats nothing you reraise with.

he beats a lot of hands I reraise with but bluff the river with
09-19-2006, 09:53 PM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.

Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.

Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot?

Too bad 1/2 players don't think like this at all ..

The push is standard btw. You are almost never beat (usually at worse you're chopping) outright, and worse hands do occasionally call. Villain made a blocking bet on the river and might convince himself that Hero pushed as a bluff sensing weakness due to the blocking bet. There is also metagame value (well, not too much at 1/2nl) to not showing down your hand.
09-19-2006, 10:04 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

What is checking supposed to accomplish other than look like a slow-played boat or A-A?

dsaxton, i respect you as a player. But you have a tendency to look at plays from a very skewed and unfair point of view.

Checking here, from me (or you, or any player), is a missed hand the vast majority of the time. It doesn't "look like a slowplayed boat or AA." Sure, a boat or AA might slowplay this, but not as often as a missed AQ/AJ/QQ/TT/99/air would check.

Ok, let's assume he interprets your check as weakness. On the river, he checks, trying to show something down. All the hands you mentioned that would check the turn here would also check the river. You bet, he figures out that you have a hand and folds. What have you accomplished other than giving him a free card in a big pot?

Too bad 1/2 players don't think like this at all ..

The push is standard btw. You are almost never beat (usually at worse you're chopping) outright, and worse hands do occasionally call. Villain made a blocking bet on the river and might convince himself that Hero pushed as a bluff sensing weakness due to the blocking bet. There is also metagame value (well, not too much at 1/2nl) to not showing down your hand.

Yeah, $200NL players will call you down on every street, which is another reason why you bet the turn. I still don't see how checking this turn is anything more than fancy play syndrome.

The river is an obvious push.
09-20-2006, 12:51 AM
Renton

im pretty sure QQ folds to a turn bet

Being results oriented, this was clearly the optimal line. Not being results oriented, i wasn't sure it was, so thats why I posted the hand.