50NL KK all-in pf

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10-02-2006, 01:48 AM
Margin Of Error

50NL KK all-in pf

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($58.65)
Button ($47.95)
SB ($56.70)
Hero ($50.50)
UTG ($31.10)
UTG+1 ($13.45)
MP1 ($9.70)
MP2 ($56.05)
MP3 ($52.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9, UTG+1 folds, MP3 raises to $15, Hero raises to $50.5, MP3 calls $35.50.

Flop: ($101.75) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)

Turn: ($101.75) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)

River: ($101.75) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $101.75

Is the preflop push -EV? Villian seemed fairly loose, how often is this aces?
10-02-2006, 08:38 AM
AHiltz

If opp is loose, and you are not viewed as tight, this is not aces as often as you think.
10-02-2006, 10:20 AM
Miffed22001

as a general rule i hate this on stars, but that depends if your opponent isnt awful. If he is easy push.
10-02-2006, 11:49 AM
Margin Of Error

Lets say you have KK and opp 3 bets do you u flat call or push? Aassuming you flat call, if a K/Q/J doesnt come out, what does your opp have to do for you to give him credit for AA?

Assuming villian is a solid TAG 18/12 or something.
10-02-2006, 11:52 AM
Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.
10-02-2006, 01:05 PM
takesix

Re: 50NL KK all-in pf

If it happens, it happens. If your read is he's loose, then go with your read.

But be prepared to laugh every once in a while when villain flips JJ.
10-02-2006, 01:44 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.

if hes lose its an easy push. Other than that stars players tend to only 3bet KK/AA and call a reraise with QQ/JJ/AK. Stars players play so predictably it is quite possible to not have to pay off AA.
10-02-2006, 01:47 PM
nutsinho

yeah this looks pretty marginal...cant really fold though if you don't have any kind of read that he's tight
10-02-2006, 01:52 PM
Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.

if hes lose its an easy push. Other than that stars players tend to only 3bet KK/AA and call a reraise with QQ/JJ/AK. Stars players play so predictably it is quite possible to not have to pay off AA.

I disagree. Unless you have played a significant number of hands against this person and have all their PT stats available... Just because it's PokerStars, it has nothing to do with what the Opponent is holding.
10-02-2006, 02:03 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.

if hes lose its an easy push. Other than that stars players tend to only 3bet KK/AA and call a reraise with QQ/JJ/AK. Stars players play so predictably it is quite possible to not have to pay off AA.

I disagree. Unless you have played a significant number of hands against this person and have all their PT stats available... Just because it's PokerStars, it has nothing to do with what the Opponent is holding.

totally disagree. But for sake of argument ill agree to disagree and leave it at that.
10-02-2006, 02:20 PM
Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.

if hes lose its an easy push. Other than that stars players tend to only 3bet KK/AA and call a reraise with QQ/JJ/AK. Stars players play so predictably it is quite possible to not have to pay off AA.

I disagree. Unless you have played a significant number of hands against this person and have all their PT stats available... Just because it's PokerStars, it has nothing to do with what the Opponent is holding.

totally disagree. But for sake of argument ill agree to disagree and leave it at that.

does that mean that you fold KK everytime you're reraised on PokerStars?

obv. you go all in on Party and Bodog, right?
10-02-2006, 06:26 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

No way you fold this, ever. KK vs AA happens, it sucks, but I think folding KK would be a mistake here.

if hes lose its an easy push. Other than that stars players tend to only 3bet KK/AA and call a reraise with QQ/JJ/AK. Stars players play so predictably it is quite possible to not have to pay off AA.

I disagree. Unless you have played a significant number of hands against this person and have all their PT stats available... Just because it's PokerStars, it has nothing to do with what the Opponent is holding.

totally disagree. But for sake of argument ill agree to disagree and leave it at that.

does that mean that you fold KK everytime you're reraised on PokerStars?

obv. you go all in on Party and Bodog, right?

it means that on stars when i get three bet preflop with KK opp has two hands AA/kk unless hes shown a tendancy to be a fish. On bodog id probably push and on party id check my notes before pushing. Stars players are so rigid in how they play that stacking off with KK against a 3bet preflop is not a spot i like. There are lots of better oppertunities IMO vs weak/tighties at 50nl/100nl/200nl on stars than all in preflop vs a 3bet with KK when your other guy is 18/9 or some other nit.
10-06-2006, 11:23 AM
pantherhound

i thought I'd find the nearest AA vs KK thread rather than start another one. I think this is the first time I've let them go preflop. No real read on villain but he def has not been pulling any aggroshit anywhere and we know this is QQ approximately never.

------HAND 83------
Game #2574101203: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2006/10/06 - 15:56:47 (UK)
Table "Steelton" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: Pokerthai ($67.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Sjimmie ($100.75 in chips)
Seat 3: cuteg1rl ($122.59 in chips)
Seat 4: New_Delhi ($73.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Scared ($65.74 in chips)
Seat 6: Trevior ($96.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Alexn7 ($28.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Joab01 ($41.25 in chips)
Seat 9: Smiffy44 ($168.91 in chips)
Seat 10: Minhar ($20 in chips)
Smiffy44: posts small blind $0.50
Minhar: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Kh Kc]
Pokerthai: folds
Sjimmie: raises to $5
cuteg1rl: calls $5
New_Delhi: folds
Scared: folds
Trevior: folds
Alexn7: folds
Joab01: folds
Smiffy44: raises to $20
Minhar: folds
Sjimmie: raises to $36
cuteg1rl: folds
Smiffy44: folds
Smiffy44 sits out
Returned uncalled bets $16 to Sjimmie
Sjimmie: doesn't show hand
Sjimmie collects $46 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $46 Main pot $46 Rake $0
Seat 1: Pokerthai folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Sjimmie collected $46
Seat 3: cuteg1rl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: New_Delhi folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Scared folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Trevior folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Alexn7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Joab01 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Smiffy44 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Minhar (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
10-06-2006, 02:42 PM
Miffed22001

being 3 bet preflop on stars at small/medium stakes is the equivalent of this (the first time i ever did it preflop)

First time. Probably last.

STAGE #418222677: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.50 - 21:27:24 (ET)
Table: DAYTONA BEACH (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 9 - ZIM_BOB ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 1 - POKERNTHEEYE ($17 in chips)
Seat 2 - 2OFAK1ND ($20 in chips)
Seat 3 - PAQUIN16 ($6.10 in chips)
Seat 5 - BILLYDPAINTS ($78.90 in chips)
Seat 6 - MIFFED22001 ($53.85 in chips)
POKERNTHEEYE - Posts small blind $0.25
2OFAK1ND - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to MIFFED22001 [Kd Ks]
PAQUIN16 - Folds
BILLYDPAINTS - Raises $2 to $2
MIFFED22001 - Raises $6 to $6
ZIM_BOB - All-In(Raise) $98.50 to $98.50
POKERNTHEEYE - Folds
2OFAK1ND - Folds
BILLYDPAINTS - Folds
MIFFED22001 - Folds
ZIM_BOB - returned ($92.50) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ZIM_BOB - Shows [Ad Ac]
ZIM_BOB Collects $14.75 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($14.75)
Seat 1: POKERNTHEEYE (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: 2OFAK1ND (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: PAQUIN16 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: BILLYDPAINTS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: MIFFED22001 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: ZIM_BOB (dealer) collected Total ($14.75) All-In
10-06-2006, 09:07 PM
Rondavu

I'm gonna chime in, because no one has answered this question correctly IMO. When you're 3-bet preflop holding KK, what you have is a confident opponent with X range. At this point, you're not laying down KK, but what it becomes is a situation where you need to extract the most from the hands you're beating, while paying off AA on all non A flops. It's a big mistake to make TT-QQ slow down at any point in the hand, because you decided to 4-bet KK. Against a wide range of opponents, by 4-betting, what you're essentially doing is stacking off to AA and losing value to the range you're ahead of, since they lose confidence.

It's a huge EV mistake to 4-bet, get called by TT-QQ looking to set, and then watch TT-QQ fold to your continuation on a rag flop. Just call a 3-bet with KK, and stack a wide range of hands while paying off AA. You'll thank me later. Cash game is much different than tourney. This is one of the biggest differences.
10-06-2006, 10:12 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I'm gonna chime in, because no one has answered this question correctly IMO. When you're 3-bet preflop holding KK, what you have is a confident opponent with X range. At this point, you're not laying down KK, but what it becomes is a situation where you need to extract the most from the hands you're beating, while paying off AA on all non A flops. It's a big mistake to make TT-QQ slow down at any point in the hand, because you decided to 4-bet KK. Against a wide range of opponents, by 4-betting, what you're essentially doing is stacking off to AA and losing value to the range you're ahead of, since they lose confidence.

It's a huge EV mistake to 4-bet, get called by TT-QQ looking to set, and then watch TT-QQ fold to your continuation on a rag flop. Just call a 3-bet with KK, and stack a wide range of hands while paying off AA. You'll thank me later. Cash game is much different than tourney. This is one of the biggest differences.

stars players will not 3bet preflop without KK/AA and im incapable of doing the math on opp holding KK when i also do.
On other sites meh. Yore prob 4 betting allin with KK....
10-06-2006, 10:12 PM
Phantaroth

That is interesting...

But what about considering the risk of letting the hands your killing hit the flop? So arn't you going to be behind a wider range of hands if you stop pressing the action?

QQ might call if you push preflop, but lets say you let 99-QQ see the flop... flop comes A 3 10, how much are you getting out of QQ?

It seems to me you get less ways to win if you don't raise, and more ways to be behind...
10-07-2006, 10:47 AM
Seasider

I agree with miffed to a point there are certain regulars on Stars who arn't 3 betting without KK/AA (at 6-max anyway). However they are also basically telling you what hand they have and will be all in on pretty much any flop with the aces. I generally call them and look for a set to stack them if they have AA or to show down as cheap if poss if they look more like KK post flop; (last two times I hit my set they got their A on the river which sucked but I was so sure of my read there was no doubt in my head when I saw the A on the board that my KKK had just been cracked! ) :roll:

However there are also players who will 3 bet a wide range of hands, they generally come out at weekends, will only be playing 1 table and swinging wildly up and down. I'll sometimes call these guys 3 bet but be more aggro post flop or sometimes I'll push back if they have got personal and dont want it to look like they got bullied off a hand.

A 4 bet re-raise advertises your hand too much so you will pay off the set or take down the pre-flop pot. I think thats what Rondavu was saying.
10-07-2006, 05:54 PM
martindcx1e

Re: 50NL KK all-in pf

Quote:

Originally Posted by takesix

If it happens, it happens. If your read is he's loose, then go with your read.

But be prepared to laugh every once in a while when villain flips JJ.

ya you will see crap like JJ every once in a while, but AA/KK are by far the most likely hands for villain to be holding with AA being most likely. you have to put villain on a range and act accordingly. also, just b/c someone seems loose doesn't mean they are loose when it comes to 4-betting pre-flop.
10-08-2006, 07:32 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantaroth

That is interesting...

But what about considering the risk of letting the hands your killing hit the flop?..

This isn't even a consideration. They have so few outs it doesn't matter. Also, QQ isn't pushing my KK off an ace flop often enough to care. They're afraid of the ace too. The pot usually ends up small, and KK takes it down.

If I get 3-bet holding KK, and the flop comes with a JQ on it, I'm playing cautiously and sometimes folding to heavy aggression.