Do you always go broke here?

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10-09-2006, 09:53 PM
MissKitty

Do you always go broke here?

Second hand at the table w/ no stats on anyone.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($23.80)
MP1 ($24.95)
MP2 ($25.40)
MP3 ($29.85)
CO ($21.35)
Button ($23.75)
Hero ($28.05)
BB ($15)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.65) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $1.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.50 MP2 raises to $13.25, MP2 raises to $26.4.

Turn: ($27.05) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)

River: ($27.05) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $27.05

Results in white below:
Hero has As 4h (two pair, aces and fours).
MP2 has 2h 2c (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: MP2 wins $27.05.
10-09-2006, 10:06 PM
Halv

Villain might have Ax here, but when you c/r his pot overbet and he comes back over the top again alarm bells need to go off.

Dont go broke with two pair in a 0.65$ limped pot. If he has a hand you beat here then you'll get his cash easily enough later on.

(I assume you pushed flop? The HH is a bit messed up?)
10-09-2006, 10:07 PM
metaxy6

Why go broke in an unraised pot?
I don't even complete, especially in the 2nd hand at the table.

As played, the flop 3-bet tells you what you need to know. Without good reads, it's just hope that villian is holding a2 or ax. Hope isn't much of a reason to get stacked.
10-09-2006, 10:07 PM
Miffed22001

folding to that flop 3 bet
10-09-2006, 10:14 PM
swiggidy

Re: Do you always go broke here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissKitty

Flop: ($0.65) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $1.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.50 MP2 raises to $13.25, MP2 raises to $26.4.

First off, don't complete this hand with no reads.

It's not just a 3 bet, villain is raising $10 into a $5 pot. Say "nice bet" in the chat, at low limits they'll almost always show you their hand. If it's a week hand you'll take the stack later.

Welcome to FTR
10-09-2006, 10:27 PM
Halv

I complete Ax without reads.
10-10-2006, 12:03 AM
KoRnholio

Yeah nothing wrong with completing the blind here with A4o. I fold to the massiver overbet 3bet.
10-10-2006, 12:18 AM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Yeah nothing wrong with completing the blind here with A4o. I fold to the massiver overbet 3bet.

If you're good at post-flop there isn't anything wrong with it. If you're prone to post-flop mistakes, fold pre-flop. This is a win a little or loose a lot situation.

All it's good for IMO is when you get a caller on the flop who is willing to showdown cheep. If it's an Axx flop, I'm not putting in more chips OOP on the later streets. Since the likely action is a fold to your flop bet why not complete any hand from the SB with one limper and bet at the A high flop? A4 has almost the same value as 72 with no read.
10-10-2006, 12:37 AM
Halv

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

A4 has almost the same value as 72 with no read.

A4 has much more value on a A4x(where x is not paint) flop than 72 has on 72x, because you're gonna get some action from TPGK type hands. A4 has much more value on a 44x flop than 72 has on 22x. A4 has wheel possibilities. It also has some value as a TP hand, but this is where you need to be careful.

Of course you don't want to stack off with Ax but it is certainly more powerful than xy, reads or not.

If you're prone to post-flop mistakes then get better (and this comes from someone that sucks post flop :cut:).
10-10-2006, 12:51 AM
yorib

Fold early and often to his push to your c/r. I'd have tried callling him down if I could swing a reasonable size pot. There are too many hands that beat us (22/44/35) vs. A2. Once the pot got above $5 I'd bail.
10-10-2006, 01:08 AM
swiggidy

[quote="HalvSame"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Of course you don't want to stack off with Ax but it is certainly more powerful than xy, reads or not.

So you complete for the 3% chance of trips/2-pair, plus the occasional TP, knowing you have to win at least 25BB on average just to break even long term?

I like raising crap from the co/btn better than completing mediocre hands from the SB.
10-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Halv

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

So you complete for the 3% chance of trips/2-pair, plus the occasional TP, knowing you have to win at least 25BB on average just to break even long term?

No. Among other reasons I complete for the chance to take away a lot of small pots, and although I know that I can do this with xy the A high helps winning showdowns when stealing the pot doesnt work. I also complete for the occasional checked down pot that I win with A high.

Looking through my last 20k in PT, filtered by SB and VPIP, I'm slighly in the red with A2o-A9o. This includes a big lost pot on an big A high (read based) bluff that I got caught on. Include Axs and I'm in the green. Sample size is of course waaaaaaaay too small to say anything on specific hands in specific position, but until I can firmly establish that completing Ax is a leak I'll keep doing it.

Quote:

I like raising crap from the co/btn better than completing mediocre hands from the SB.

Me too. I also like AA more than I like KK. Doesn't mean that I can't play them both.
10-10-2006, 01:59 AM
swiggidy

^^ touche, this idea is something I've been wondering about (playing Axo). I realize the benefit of winning lots of small pots, but I also hate playing OOP. My post flop play is getting better, but I still feel uncomfortable enough OOP that I'm happy letting these go without reads.

My sample is even smaller so I also can't confirm or deny leakiness
10-10-2006, 02:25 AM
zook

I only think completing here is a mistake only because it's your second hand and you have no reads. With reads on MP2 and BB I'm almost always completing.
10-10-2006, 10:50 AM
Miffed22001

i dont complete here with this hand very often.

Two reasons
1. Its stars, making one pair hands on stars nity players its a sure fire way not to take advantage of the implied odds they always give you by playing so predictably. We hardly ever want to stack off with tp in an unraised pot versus a preflop limper.
2. Most players who are bad and limping in in these games are limping crap, which includes Ax (off or sooted) hence A4o is just trash. We're more likely to flop a gusthot or weak tp oop which sucks imo. If you had A4s id be much happier here, but i still fold top two on that board versus that action.

Playing on stars i want to make set breaking hands behind limpers or oop, not single pair hands. A4 fits into the category of a single pair type hand.
10-10-2006, 11:13 AM
djzcko

Don't go broke in an unraised pot. Unless you flop the nuts, anything is possible and you will usuaully pay dearly for calling down agression like this with only 2 pr. You've got very little invested, why risk your whole stack? Based on his bets, I thought "str8 or set".
10-10-2006, 11:48 AM
bode

you got the info you needed when he came over your reraise. no need to risk a stack here on 2 pair.

and FWIW, with only the CO/BTN limping behind, im always completing this.
10-10-2006, 03:00 PM
KoRnholio

[quote="swiggidy"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Of course you don't want to stack off with Ax but it is certainly more powerful than xy, reads or not.

So you complete for the 3% chance of trips/2-pair, plus the occasional TP, knowing you have to win at least 25BB on average just to break even long term?

This isn't the way to think about it. Who says you need a hand or a pair (especially against nits, in a 3-way pot) to win the pot? Most of the time 3 insignificant cards will fall on the flop and we will bet out and take it down. Or the flop gets checked around and we fire on the turn for the same result.

I can't remember which author said it (might have been Ciaffone), but just being in the pot, regardless of your cards, automatically gives you equity in the pot. Most of the time no one will flop much and a bluff will usually take it down. This is especially true of the small blind who can easily rep a hand on a raggy flop, as he is first to act after others have checked around on the flop.
10-10-2006, 05:17 PM
swiggidy

This is fine but we're talking about without reads (so you don't know they are nits unless you're at PokerStars) and it's 25NL.

With 2 villains seeing the flop 50% of the time at least one of the two will catch a piece of the flop and call a single barrel. You will have to make a PSB to get a fold since the pot is so small, giving yourself 1:1 odds. Right now this is a break-even play. Sometimes you still win after getting called so this is +eV, but only just barely.

At a higher stake I can see this play becoming a more important part of the repertoire, at 25NL it seems close enough that there is nothing wrong with just tossing it.

I personally think I leak just enough chips when I'm behind (e.g. calling a $1 bet on the turn or river into a now $3 pot) that I gain no benefit here calling pre-flop.
10-10-2006, 06:43 PM
Ravageur

Yeah, I am quite confident as well that completing here is not -EV ever so long as you don't stack off with one pair or a bad two pair.
However, without reads I honestly don't think it's that bad stacking off here if you had concealed the strength of your hand more. But considering the stakes and the way he played it, you're only beating A2 and trailing 3 other likely holdings (22, 44, 35)
10-12-2006, 04:23 PM
Eric

Doyle Brunson warns against unraised pots in SS:

Quote:

In No-Limit play, you must be very careful you don't lose all your chips in an unraised pot...Now, a J-4-2 flops. You [have] 3-Deuces...you must play it carefully. Very carefully...There's nothing in the pot...and you don't want to get broke in a "nothing" pot.[Super System pages 438-439]

As Doyle implies, it is possible to get away from bottom set in an unraised pot so it is definitely possible to get away from top 2 pair.
10-12-2006, 05:10 PM
Fnord

Fold pre-flop. If we had position we certainly would complete with just about any 2. OOP we won't be able to showdown lukewarm hands, miss value with monsters and it's difficult to pick up orphan pots.
10-12-2006, 06:03 PM
LimpinAintEZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

Quote:

In No-Limit play, you must be very careful you don't lose all your chips in an unraised pot...Now, a J-4-2 flops. You [have] 3-Deuces...you must play it carefully. Very carefully...There's nothing in the pot...and you don't want to get broke in a "nothing" pot.[Super System pages 438-439]

As Doyle implies, it is possible to get away from bottom set in an unraised pot so it is definitely possible to get away from top 2 pair.

i don't know - in an unraised pot at 25NL im getting people all in with J10 on the same flop against my trip 2's - If I flop a set of 2's on a J42 rainbow board, im willing to go broke with it...now, maybe that is only because the players im against overvalue everything from TP to 2 pair even despite me telling them they are way behind, they just open Push AJ on the same flop when they are drawing almost dead -

I just have found that MORE often people are overplaying top pair in unraised pots a lot more than they are hitting top sets....in a raised pot I can often take a stack by hitting 2 pair on highly predictable players - I agree that you shouldn't go broke in an unraised pot, but that thinking IMO is for when you hit 2 pair or Top Pair - Not a set...