A hand vs Fnord

I thought this one was kind of cute, hence why I'm posting it.

It looks really spewy, and by just looking at the hand, it probably is. I think it's fantastic though and am looking for a little bit of an ego massage or for somebody to just call me a donkey.

I'm playing pretty crazy on this table. It is definately not the Lukie that Fnord is accustomed to seeing. However, he and I have stayed entirely out of each other's way (purely coincidence I think). Earlier I had raised out of the blinds, lead the flop, and check/push/showed the turn when my 45o hit bottom pair against somebody else. More importantly, I don't think Fnord would ever think such a nit at heart would ever make 2 big moves like that in short order. :)

Normally I would just give up by the turn here. The thing is though, I don't think there is much AT ALL that he will EVER have here that he can call with. I would often play the big pairs here identically.

Turn bet puts him all-in.

Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($117.55)
MP ($337.40)
Button ($200.60)
SB ($192.30)
Hero ($581.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Button raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $28, Button calls $20.

Flop: ($57) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $45, Button calls $45.

Turn: ($147) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $128

It depends on how lightly Fnord calls pf reraises and flop c-bets in these reraised pots. Remember you are risking much more than he is and when he does call the turn you are drawing very slim. I agree that a straightforward opponent is unlikely to have you beat (or has a hand he will lay down to a big turn bet, like 77-99) but I wont put it past Fnord to smooth call the flop with AA-QQ,\set especially since he knows its you.

Don't do this very often OOP, but its good once in a while against habitual floaters.

I like your rock paper scissor logic about him not expecting two big bluffs in a short time.

you havent told us anything about what you think of fnord and how hes been playing. thats one of the most important things.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

The thing is though, I don't think there is much AT ALL that he will EVER have here that he can call with.

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'splain please. Fnord would call your shove in an instant with a set.

or AA/ KK

i don't understand what fnord is calling the flop with besides a set... he's calling a flop bet from a player who is communicating he will also bet the turn.

Then again, i've never played with you and i don't play 1/2. I think you got a little lucky, though

Damnit, I was going to shove that turn...

Oh, and I would have to be seriously brain-damaged to raise KK+/set in this spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massimo

i don't understand what fnord is calling the flop with besides a set... he's calling a flop bet from a player who is communicating he will also bet the turn.

Then again, i've never played with you and i don't play 1/2. I think you got a little lucky, though

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He is calling with a lot of hands that can't call a big turn bet, specifically stuff like 88 or maybe a flush draw.

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Originally Posted by aislephive

He is calling with a lot of hands that can't call a big turn bet, specifically stuff like 88 or maybe a flush draw.

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...and air.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Damnit, I was going to shove that turn...

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Lol. Why didn't you then? You gotta go with your gut man.

I have no idea what Fnord had, but I can say that I wouldn't screw slim against an intelligent player who's ready to look me up. I respect certain players, because I know they're capable of knowing where they are in weird situations like this.

I mean if you deviate from your typical line for a certain range, you risk a serious spew, so IMO you just have to be careful what the board is offering.

I don't think this a bad bet by Lukie. Clearly he did have fold equity in the heat of the dynamic based on his read of the situation. I'm just saying if I'm right about Fnord, he's capable of knowing his JTs is ahead here. I also think if Fnord stands his ground in this spot, the dynamic shifts seriously in his favor.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Lol. Why didn't you then?

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Lukie was first to bluff at the pot when the bets defined really much of anything.

I told him I really liked my hand on the flop and he shoved anyway. NH sir.

Fucking Lee Jones. Last week I would have flopped some Deuces and stacked his ass. I need to get my pattern mapper synced with the last PokerStars update.

GIVE ME A DEUCE!

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by Lukie

The thing is though, I don't think there is much AT ALL that he will EVER have here that he can call with.

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'splain please. Fnord would call your shove in an instant with a set.

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[quote]

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Originally Posted by gabe

or AA/ KK

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I guess I should reword what I said. I think Fnord's range when he calls preflop and the flop is quite wide, given the way that I have been playing. I think his range that he can and will call the turn with is quite small (ie set, monster pair, perhaps a little bit more), making it a very profitable bet.

Also, don't forget about my 5 outs vs most hands that aren't a set. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

you havent told us anything about what you think of fnord and how hes been playing. thats one of the most important things.

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Pretty uneventful. This (I believe) was the first time around the table that fnord had the button when I had the BB, so I'm not sure there's much to say about it. I think I had folded to all, or very close to all raises when I was in the blinds, which is probably important. Maybe not though if he thinks that I'm going to be trying to win pots based on pride or whatever.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about this hand. It happened before the hand in the OP. It's about as weak as I'll ever play TPTK, but it felt like the thing to do at the time.

POKERSTARS GAME #6652114966: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/10/16 - 03:13:29 (ET)
Table 'Eleonora' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: PINKRHINO ($115 in chips)
Seat 2: manub ($324.50 in chips)
Seat 3: HenryFnord ($249 in chips)
Seat 4: TimDawg888 ($215.55 in chips)
Seat 5: katatonic1 ($184 in chips)
Seat 6: Lukieplaya ($603.30 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind $1
TimDawg888: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Kh Ah]
katatonic1: folds
katatonic1 leaves the table
HenryFnord said, "They never gave me my $75 back and it didn't even work."
Lukieplaya: raises $6 to $8
PINKRHINO: folds
manub: folds
HenryFnord: calls $7
TimDawg888: folds
*** FLOP *** [Tc Kd 6s]
HenryFnord: checks
Lukieplaya: bets $12
HenryFnord: calls $12
*** TURN *** [Tc Kd 6s] [9s]
HenryFnord: checks
Lukieplaya: checks
*** RIVER *** [Tc Kd 6s 9s] [2d]
HenryFnord: bets $20
Lukieplaya: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HenryFnord: shows [Ks As] (a pair of Kings)
Lukieplaya: shows [Kh Ah] (a pair of Kings)
HenryFnord collected $39.50 from pot
Lukieplaya collected $39.50 from pot
HenryFnord said, "You nit"

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Lol. Why didn't you then?

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GIVE ME A DEUCE!

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Lol, this always makes me laugh.

i dont like fnord's play if he has air, flop call is just spew. stacks arent deep enough, lukie isn't aggro enough, and there probably isn't enough history to have a really really good read that lukie is weak or can be pushed off.

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Originally Posted by gabe

i dont like fnord's play if he has air, flop call is just spew.

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That flop gets bet with any 2. I'm sure as hell not calling $20 more pre-flop looking to play fit or fold on the flop.

The place to fold this one was pre-flop. The flop call doesn't bother me much. Re-thinking a little what my raise range ought to be here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

That flop gets bet with any 2.

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yea but that doesnt mean you should call

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

That flop gets bet with any 2.

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yea but that doesnt mean you should call

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My thought here is that facing these big re-raises I need to continue with big hands mixed with a weak one once in a while. If I'm playing a weak hand here, I'm not playing it at face value.

Ok I'm not trying to figure this out anymore. I'll just say it would have been cool if Fnord pushed and Lukie folded. other than that slap your dicks on a table and dig out the tape measure. I'll be elsewhere. Lol.

Lukie, didn't you say you lost 10 buy-ins yesterday?

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Lukie, didn't you say you lost 10 buy-ins yesterday?

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Bwned

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Originally Posted by Lukie

HenryFnord said, "You nit"

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Haha

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Ok I'm not trying to figure this out anymore. I'll just say it would have been cool if Fnord pushed and Lukie folded. other than that slap your dicks on a table and dig out the tape measure. I'll be elsewhere. Lol.

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Alright cool.

If you had read the thread you'd realize that my turn bet puts him all-in.

Also, when I play (or post), it's not about dick-wagging. Trust me on that. I am aware though, that when playing with people I know, I expect them to think that I will be putting moves on them.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

That flop gets bet with any 2.

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yea but that doesnt mean you should call

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My thought here is that facing these big re-raises I need to continue with big hands mixed with a weak one once in a while. If I'm playing a weak hand here, I'm not playing it at face value.

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I do that too, but that's why I raise 68 suited. Then I can call the reraise with implications for villains stack immune to domination.

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Lukie, didn't you say you lost 10 buy-ins yesterday?

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Actually, yesterday I played more poker then any one day in my life. Between 6-7k hands.

Included in that was a 10-buyin downswing during the night session, but I only finished that 5k hand session down about 3 buyins, and was still up a little bit of change on the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Ok I'm not trying to figure this out anymore. I'll just say it would have been cool if Fnord pushed and Lukie folded. other than that slap your dicks on a table and dig out the tape measure. I'll be elsewhere. Lol.

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Alright cool.

If you had read the thread you'd realize that my turn bet puts him all-in.

Also, when I play (or post), it's not about dick-wagging. Trust me on that. I am aware though, that when playing with people I know, I expect them to think that I will be putting moves on them.

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You took it all wrong. I was just being casual sarcastic. Also, if Fnord won the hand I would have wanted you to. I like the underdog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

I do that too, but that's why I raise 68 suited. Then I can call the reraise with implications for villains stack immune to domination.

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How does that work?

You're around 20 to 1 to out-flop Aces. Where does the balance come from?

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

That flop gets bet with any 2.

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yea but that doesnt mean you should call

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My thought here is that facing these big re-raises I need to continue with big hands mixed with a weak one once in a while. If I'm playing a weak hand here, I'm not playing it at face value.

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yea but you dont need to call a huge flop bet with no pair no draw just to shania. i could understand your play with 56h or something, but i dont consider that 'air.'

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Ok I'm not trying to figure this out anymore. I'll just say it would have been cool if Fnord pushed and Lukie folded. other than that slap your dicks on a table and dig out the tape measure. I'll be elsewhere. Lol.

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Alright cool.

If you had read the thread you'd realize that my turn bet puts him all-in.

Also, when I play (or post), it's not about dick-wagging. Trust me on that. I am aware though, that when playing with people I know, I expect them to think that I will be putting moves on them.

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You took it all wrong. I was just being casual sarcastic. Also, if Fnord won the hand I would have wanted you to. I like the underdog.

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It's all good. I just don't want people thinking that I only made this play (or posted the hand for that matter) because it was against FTR.com member Fnord. The preflop/flop play aren't standard for me, obviously, but it is a play I make with reasonable frequency. I thought the turn play in this exact hand was ++EV, and I thought it would create some interesting discussion, which it has.

I think pre-flop and flop are standard. Although you should seriously consider check/folding the flop against a strong/thinking/tightish player. It will help a lot to get rid of those pesky 10-buy-in swings. Your high c-bet percentage will get exploited by guys that know what you're up to and put you correctly on big pairs sometimes suited-connectors, AKish and sometimes med/small pairs.

If you're firing a second barrel all-in here with weak hands regularly, it's a pretty big leak. Although having outs against one pair helps you out a bit.

My 2 chips...

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

I do that too, but that's why I raise 68 suited. Then I can call the reraise with implications for villains stack immune to domination.

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How does that work?

You're around 20 to 1 to out-flop Aces. Where does the balance come from?

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Fnord's right. Calling re-raises, even min-raises, is so bad in these situations unless you're both super deep stacked.

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Calling re-raises, even min-raises.

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I call min-re-raises here with a very wide range. Implied odds are there and the other guy pretty much just told me he doesn't have a fucking clue what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I think pre-flop and flop are standard. Although you should seriously consider check/folding the flop against a strong/thinking/tightish player. It will help a lot to get rid of those pesky 10-buy-in swings. Your high c-bet percentage will get exploited by guys that know what you're up to.

If you're firing a second barrel all-in here with weak hands regularly, it's a pretty big leak. Although having outs against one pair helps you out a bit.

My 2 chips...

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Well, I certainly don't think preflop is standard with a small suited connector. I'd rather 3-bet it then call though to be honest. I like betting the flop here the large majority of the time. If a player is giving me that much trouble, I would much rather just tighten up my 3-bet requirements then to do that and then give up when called. If the player in question will open a wide range but only call a large 3-bet with a tight range though, then you make a great point.

10 buyin swings are fun. I don't know why you'd want to get rid of those .:)

In all seriousness though, tilt, variance, and fatigue are usually more to blame for large downswings then consistently making plays like this, at least for me (I think?).

About firing a second barrell allin with weak hands here consistently, I would definately agree with that, but it doesn't apply to me most of the time. Truthfully, I think being too predictable (ie building a pot in similar spots with the same preflop and flop play), then giving up on the turn is probably my bigger leak. Hence, I have to do this sometimes, or c+c///c+push the turn sometimes to balance it out.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Well, I certainly don't think preflop is standard with a small suited connector.

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It should be. Pre-flop is insta-profit if you don't spew it back post-flop. You're not building a pot, you're telling me to fuck off.

That being said, against the vast majority of the field, your insta-profit here comes from the flop bet.

Also, there's something I want to add about variance (think 10 buyin downswing), that at best, only partially applies to this hand.

If I drop 10 buyins due to bad play (which was partially the case for me yesterday), then that sucks and needs to be corrected. However, I'm badly overrolled for the 1/2 game and don't care much about the variance. It's all about EV for me. People say that you should have 15 or 20 or even 30 buyins for a game and that you can ignore variance, which is just bull. With those amounts, variance IS a concern and affects your play, even if only a small amount.

I also feel good when I play, and it generally doesn't bother me much when I take a 2 outer for a 2+ buyin pot.

Anyway, I just thought I'd add that in. BR management = key, even if you don't play with as many buyins as I have been (a LOT).

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

I do that too, but that's why I raise 68 suited. Then I can call the reraise with implications for villains stack immune to domination.

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How does that work?

You're around 20 to 1 to out-flop Aces. Where does the balance come from?

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Fnord's right. Calling re-raises, even min-raises, is so bad in these situations unless you're both super deep stacked.

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I understand what you're saying, but you need to get involved with wide range reraisers sometimes, and whether your implied odds are there or not is secondary in a lot of spots to the meta value. Playing to erase the read of your opponent equals $$$ as well. Also, if you're a strong player after the flop, you can cure your bad odds with selective fold equity on scary boards against opponents who are capable of folding. They don't always have AA. Sometimes they have KK when an A flops.

Not that I really use the term often, but it's Shania. Give it to get it ( I hope that's what shania is). I'd rather battle a wide range reraiser with 86s than A9o. Is that fair enough? I think this applies even more now that HUD is such a big part of our game.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by aislephive

He is calling with a lot of hands that can't call a big turn bet, specifically stuff like 88 or maybe a flush draw.

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...and air.

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Do people not c/r AI this turn a lot and bust your air/88?