more clueless hands at 25NL

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11-06-2006, 03:11 PM
donkbee

more clueless hands at 25NL

alleythecat: poker is all luck
courtiebee: yes

Thanks to everyone who replied to my other thread, it was all very helpful. Here’s another batch of hands that I’m not particularly sure about. Again, please assume no reads unless stated otherwise; still trying to figure out how to get those (and what to look for).

1) Bet the turn?

PokerStars Game #6910367561: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 21:15:52 (ET)
Table 'Neckar' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: maggotfeed ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 2: magikpouf ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 3: EyeScreamMan ($30.35 in chips)
Seat 4: alleythecat ($18.90 in chips)
Seat 5: courtiebee ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ineed2poker ($83.30 in chips)
Seat 7: THE SHOLDER ($34 in chips)
Seat 8: ReuDawg ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 9: HolgerSpeck ($39.70 in chips)
ineed2poker: posts small blind $0.10
THE SHOLDER: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Kc Th]
ReuDawg: folds
HolgerSpeck: folds
maggotfeed: folds
magikpouf: folds
EyeScreamMan: folds
alleythecat: folds
courtiebee: raises $0.75 to $1
ineed2poker: calls $0.90
THE SHOLDER: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [7h Ts 4h]
ineed2poker: checks
THE SHOLDER: checks
courtiebee: bets $2
ineed2poker: folds
THE SHOLDER: calls $2
*** TURN *** [7h Ts 4h] [Qh]
THE SHOLDER: checks
courtiebee: checks
*** RIVER *** [7h Ts 4h Qh] [Js]
THE SHOLDER: bets $3.25
courtiebee: folds
THE SHOLDER collected $6.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7 | Rake $0.30
Board [7h Ts 4h Qh Js]
Seat 1: maggotfeed folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: magikpouf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: EyeScreamMan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: alleythecat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: courtiebee (button) folded on the River
Seat 6: ineed2poker (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: THE SHOLDER (big blind) collected ($6.70)
Seat 8: ReuDawg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: HolgerSpeck folded before Flop (didn't bet)

2) Fold preflop?

PokerStars Game #6911297322: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 22:24:47 (ET)
Table 'Dirikis' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Kyle Basa ($31.25 in chips)
Seat 2: bun liang ($23.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Lainger99 ($13 in chips)
Seat 4: gfresh12 ($17.05 in chips)
Seat 5: P-chan ($65.85 in chips)
Seat 6: lampasas ($23.50 in chips)
Seat 8: courtiebee ($23.30 in chips)
Seat 9: Dhex1973 ($7.15 in chips)
gfresh12: posts small blind $0.10
P-chan: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ah Jc]
lampasas: calls $0.25
courtiebee: raises $1 to $1.25
Dhex1973: calls $1.25
Kyle Basa: folds
bun liang: folds
Lainger99: calls $1.25
gfresh12: folds
P-chan: folds
lampasas: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 5d 9h]
courtiebee: checks
Dhex1973: checks
Lainger99: bets $1
courtiebee: folds

3) Only thing that I can mention about the villain is that he was 48/20 over only 25 hands. What the heck do I do on the turn? I called because I had no idea what to do. After the flop, I was lost.

PokerStars Game #6911377098: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 22:30:43 (ET)
Table 'Neckar' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: russdigga ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 2: Oberguru ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 3: michacho9 ($15.75 in chips)
Seat 4: jcviper ($0.75 in chips)
Seat 5: broncofan07 ($11 in chips)
Seat 6: ineed2poker ($62.80 in chips)
Seat 7: courtiebee ($28.45 in chips)
Seat 8: madcapp49 ($13.75 in chips)
Seat 9: irishguym ($24.50 in chips)
courtiebee: posts small blind $0.10
madcapp49: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [8h Kh]
irishguym: folds
russdigga: folds
Oberguru: folds
michacho9: calls $0.25
jcviper: folds
broncofan07: folds
ineed2poker: calls $0.25
courtiebee: calls $0.15
madcapp49: checks
*** FLOP *** [9h Ks 8s]
courtiebee: bets $0.70
madcapp49: folds
michacho9: raises $1.55 to $2.25
ineed2poker: folds
courtiebee: raises $5.25 to $7.50
michacho9: calls $5.25
*** TURN *** [9h Ks 8s] [3s]
courtiebee: checks
michacho9: bets $0.25
courtiebee: calls $0.25
*** RIVER *** [9h Ks 8s 3s] [Jd]
courtiebee: checks
michacho9: bets $7.75 and is all-in
courtiebee: folds
michacho9 collected $15.75 from pot
michacho9: doesn't show hand

4) Bets okay?

PokerStars Game #6911450459: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 22:36:15 (ET)
Table 'Libera' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: antbug ($30.90 in chips)
Seat 2: top2pear ($25.10 in chips)
Seat 3: areogizelle ($49.60 in chips)
Seat 4: MarcoA_BR ($21.05 in chips)
Seat 5: jjpokerdeuce ($14.55 in chips)
Seat 6: courtiebee ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 8: Kyle Basa ($29.70 in chips)
Seat 9: dollarboy210 ($28.50 in chips)
jjpokerdeuce: posts small blind $0.10
courtiebee: posts big blind $0.25
agentbond007: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [7h 3h]
Kyle Basa: folds
dollarboy210: calls $0.25
antbug: folds
top2pear: folds
areogizelle: folds
MarcoA_BR: folds
jjpokerdeuce: calls $0.15
courtiebee: checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 5h 6s]
jjpokerdeuce: checks
courtiebee: bets $0.60
dollarboy210: raises $0.60 to $1.20
jjpokerdeuce: folds
courtiebee: raises $4.80 to $6
dollarboy210: folds
courtiebee collected $3 from pot
courtiebee: doesn't show hand

5) What is someone typically reraising with preflop? What am I playing to hit once I cold call? What does someone push with on this flop?

PokerStars Game #6911890440: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 23:10:11 (ET)
Table 'Dirikis' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Kyle Basa ($32.40 in chips)
Seat 2: dollarboy210 ($23.50 in chips)
Seat 3: REZ24 ($21.95 in chips)
Seat 5: P-chan ($67.10 in chips)
Seat 7: bigfinnz88 ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 8: courtiebee ($35.45 in chips)
Seat 9: chuckfantast ($37.55 in chips)
P-chan: posts small blind $0.10
bigfinnz88: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Kc Ac]
courtiebee: raises $1 to $1.25
chuckfantast: folds
Kyle Basa: folds
dollarboy210: raises $2.75 to $4
REZ24: folds
P-chan: folds
bigfinnz88: folds
courtiebee: calls $2.75
*** FLOP *** [9d 2h Ks]
courtiebee: checks
dollarboy210: bets $19.50 and is all-in
courtiebee: calls $19.50
11-06-2006, 03:19 PM
Fnord

Hand 1: Standard. I sometimes call the river bet if a blank falls.
Hand 2: Standard, particuarly if lampasas sucks at poker.
Hand 3: You're potstruck, shove turn because every other play sucks.
Hand 4: $4 gets the job done. Grill him up good.
Hand 5: The decision here is pre-flop. If it's a tight re-raise then just fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

finally moving to cash games (this is a sad sad day indeed)

Absurd.
11-06-2006, 03:38 PM
Blinky

Reads: how many tables are you playing? When I take a read, I usually make note of a few things
- preflop. Does the player limp/call with all sorts of crap? Are they a nutcamper (you should be able to spot these guys within an orbit or two)? Will they play any two suited? Are they raising light?
- postflop. Can they drop an overpair or TPTK (fairly rare at 25NL)? Will they chase draws w/o proper odds? How aggro are they with position? Call stn? etc etc etc.

Are they obviously fishy?

1. How often have you been raising this guy's blind?

As played, opp could put you on a preflop raise/c-bet attempt to buy the pot on the flop. When you check behind on the turn, you will likely face a riverbet if BB is decent.

I probably bet the turn, folding to raise. If he calls and leads on the river you're probably done.

2. Fold pre is ok here depending on your impression of the table. It is difficult to play something like AJo OOP. I might try cbetting this flop and shut down if called.

3. I'd full out pot the flop. When raised, I would call and reevaluate on the turn. Reraising flop here is hairy as you're building a pot OOP with a vulnerable hand... if you reraise here you should consider pushing as your raise leaves opp with half his (short)stack behind

With the flop action I try to show down for a reasonable price.

This is a tricky hand as opp is short... and it seems like you're almost priced into a river call (you're getting 3:1 for your money).

3) Good flop lead. Hand is OK, but you don't have to raise as much to give opps poor odds to draw to a flush.

4) It's all in the reads Court. Typical players at 25NL won't reraise without AA KK QQ (AK), but this isn't true of everyone.

You can try pushing preflop (kinda gambooly/hyperaggro; not highly recommended unless opp is short or an idjit). This is where the key decision is.

I've not been heavily reraised with AKo so I can't offer too much advice. On the flop, you have a decision to make: am I willing to play for stacks with TPTK? I have learned the hard way that TPTK can be a stack-off hand if one is careless.

You've invested $4 into this pot. How comfortable do you feel throwing the rest of your stack in with "only" tptk?

EDIT: removed my comment about blind battles in No. 1 (misread hand)
11-06-2006, 03:38 PM
swiggidy

1 - Bet more on flop, 2.50-3.00. Turn is read dependant. If they are calling station I check, if they are tighter I bet. River fine

2 - If you generally get 2-3 callers then yes fold pre-flop.

3 - Bet $1 on flop. I would call the flop raise and start looking for a cheap showdown. On turn I don't think he has a flush, but if he has a set he'll call a raise. 25NL players are weird that way.

4 - Bet 0.75 at least, I probably bet $1. Theoretically I re-raise to $4. After you match his min-raise there is $3 in the pot, he gets 2:1 odds to call.

In practice I don't think there is anything wrong with your raise. If it's a donked up AA/KK it's all going in. If it's a set it's all going in. Nh.

5 - someone me, or someone "random 25NL". I almost never see re-raises. It's usually AA, KK, AK. I re-raise 99+, AQ for isolation, especially if he plays bad post-flop.

Good flops are monotone, paired, or with an A or K.

What's your read on this guy? Unless I've tagged him as a donk, I can't call this.
11-06-2006, 05:28 PM
nutsinho

what fnord said
11-06-2006, 05:43 PM
DaNutsInYoEye

Courtie! Use the HandCoverter! :D

Mainly for the reason of that it calculates pot size for you.
11-06-2006, 08:50 PM
donkbee

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Courtie! Use the HandCoverter! :D

Mainly for the reason of that it calculates pot size for you.

Ah ... I'll try to remember next time.
11-06-2006, 09:02 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

2. Fold pre is ok here depending on your impression of the table. It is difficult to play something like AJo OOP. I might try cbetting this flop and shut down if called.

Terrible spot for a c-bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

Reraising flop here is hairy as you're building a pot OOP with a vulnerable hand... if you reraise here you should consider pushing as your raise leaves opp with half his (short)stack behind

You're sticking it in against what figures to be a clueless half-buy. Put him on an installment payment plan. We commit to shoving any turn card when we make that flop re-raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

3) Good flop lead. Hand is OK, but you don't have to raise as much to give opps poor odds to draw to a flush.

Why are we putting him on the flush draw? I think putting everyone on the flush draw is a form of weak/tight disease that slowing robs thinking players of value in routine hands when they blow all sorts of crap drawing dead to your hand out of the pot. Keep building the pot and if a bad card turns, oh well. More often, we'll turn good and hit him up for real value on one or two big money streets.
11-06-2006, 09:14 PM
Pelion

my thoughts.

1) pretty standard.
2) Dont fold preflop. Play it how you did. Horrible flop to cbet unless hes very predictable.
3)Push turn. As played call river.
4)I think your raise is too big unless you have a very loose read. I think i make it $5 but im not great at counting potsizes in those HHs :p
5) Need a read for this hand. Quite a few people will only reraise QQ+ at these stakes. If hes tight or you dont know him then probably just fold. If you call and hit the K out of position then you probably cant get away from it.
Calling the overbet is anotherone that needs a read. Some guys only do it with the nuts. Others only do it with air (or frustrated QQ on this board). I probably call the flop as played.
11-06-2006, 09:58 PM
Blinky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

2. Fold pre is ok here depending on your impression of the table. It is difficult to play something like AJo OOP. I might try cbetting this flop and shut down if called.

Terrible spot for a c-bet.

I am trying to pick my spots a bit. I am admittedly a c-bet bot much of the time. Are we mainly concerned with being OOP?

Quote:

Why are we putting him on the flush draw? I think putting everyone on the flush draw is a form of weak/tight disease that slowing robs thinking players of value in routine hands when they blow all sorts of crap drawing dead to your hand out of the pot. Keep building the pot and if a bad card turns, oh well. More often, we'll turn good and hit him up for real value on one or two big money streets.

Very true. Building a pot is a skill I haven't mastered. However, what is your line if a bad card comes on the turn and you don't fill up? It is an unraised pot after all. I'm guessing showdown for cheap?!
11-07-2006, 05:35 AM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

I am trying to pick my spots a bit. I am admittedly a c-bet bot much of the time. Are we mainly concerned with being OOP?

That and its the kind of board people like to float us on AND there are 2 players to act afterwards.
When I first replied I thought there was a flush draw out too which would make it even worse but apparently not...
11-07-2006, 11:29 AM
griffey24

good job

1)

A lot of players in the blinds will call your raise and flop bet to see what you do on the turn. A strong second barrel on the turn will take down a lot of pots, especially since the blinds probably don't believe you since you raised on the button. Don't spew too much though.

2) Being OOP sucks, so its played fine. Though I find that a strong continuation bet from early position gets a lot of respect at times. Not in this hand though.

3) Has villain been shown to raise draws? You have flopped a very strong hand and played it strong. I think I continue to show strength on the turn, despite the spade. You still have outs if behind and as played, you gave him the pot. Push turn.

4) Played well. Strong flop but lots of scare cards to come.

5) NH. Way overbet, I think you're ahead here. As previously said, Pre-flop is all on reads.