Calling for value?

Villain is a bad aggro donk 56/29/5 and bluffs/bets weak hands to much.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($55.94)
UTG ($111.05)
MP ($112.53)
Hero ($99.50)
SB ($52.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($18.50) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero calls $5.

River: ($28.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $25, Hero calls $25.

Final Pot: $78.50


Against overaggro opponents i like to call. What do you think?

As played you have to call. I like the call on the flop. You need to raise the turn unless you have a read that says "pots river with TPNK"

I think I raise the turn (1/4th pot WTF?) because sometimes you won't have TPGK.
But otherwise... if he is going to fire 3rd barrels maybe it's better to just call.

how does he react when raised?

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

how does he react when raised?

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I'm not sure, but looking at his AF (only over 50 hands though), I think he'd probably lay down a weak hand when raised.

nice hand, raising anywhere is bad unless the player is really really bad

OK. I voted like it.

Ok thx for the comments. The turn seems to be the only questionable call. I didn't raise here because I thought he was either weak and would fold to a raise, or he wanted me to raise. And because an aggro donk might try to bluff me off my hand on the river if I showed weakness by just calling a weak turnbet.

He showed down 66.

i know its too late and i may get slammed for this, but why the h*ll do you call here? isnt he "telling" you he has nothing with a $5 bet into a $20 pot on the turn? with the river, he may have hit his 9, big deal, you have the A.

i raise. if you want value, min raise. if he folds to your raise, you still get the $25 donk bet. if he 3 bets the river, you can fold easily.

i guess i can see your point, sort of, but isnt it rather nitty to avoid pushing your edges with aggros?

Against a decent opponent I'm raising the flop to see where he's at.

Against a loose donk I like the call on the flop, but I'd definitely pop him on the turn. You've got a strong hand against a donk - get mileage out of it.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i guess i can see your point, sort of, but isnt it rather nitty to avoid pushing your edges with aggros?

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(It think raising is the nittier play. Any type a raise, and he will fold on the turn or shut down on the river with a large part of his range that I beat. By calling i take the (small) risk of him drawing out on me, in exchange for the added value off him trying to bluff me of my hand on the river. So calling is more risk and more reward IMO.

Maybe we could get more value by raising if his range was exactly A10, A7, A6, but I think his range is much wider here.)

Edit : I'm sorry, I though you were talking about the turn. Raising the river? Hmm, I don't know, I don't think he calls much that I beat. His bet looks like either a bluff or a monster, after the turn action.

yes, i was talking of the river bet ONLY. i thought that was the poster's specific question.

if the question was calling for value "throughout the hand." then, we have a different scenario. by calling the aggro, you invite a suckout, but if you play back at him, he will fold. its a gambool either way. i like calling until a draw shows up and hitting him first, on the turn here with his weak-arse bet, and taking the pot down here. your hand is strong, but not strong enough, imo, to risk him hitting some crazy 2 pair, or a draw. neither of which you can pick up if he is a true aggro.

back to the river bet...when somebody bets into you, you NEVER maximize your value by calling. there are no more bets left. you maximize your LOSSES by calling behind on the river. your value on the river is raising or folding. if you think you are ahead, raise. if you think you are behind, fold. if you are not sure, and want to see his cards, call. but calling is NOT for value...ON THE RIVER.

that was all i meant.

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Originally Posted by handsomestan

Against a decent opponent I'm raising the flop to see where he's at.

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theres not much need for this ever

Call the river and say "Phew, I almost folded".

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you NEVER maximize your value by calling

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how about if you're a dog when called?

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Originally Posted by Chopper

.when somebody bets into you, you NEVER maximize your value by calling.

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this is wrong

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drmcboy
PostPosted: Tue, 07 Nov 2006, 11:16am
Quote:
you NEVER maximize your value by calling


how about if you're a dog when called?

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yes, if i get called, there WAS value in my bet, but only when i am ahead. if i am behind, that is either a misread, bad bluff, or a donkbet. but, when ahead, the value is in GETTING called...not doing the calling when someone bets into you.

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gabe
PostPosted: Tue, 07 Nov 2006, 11:23am
Chopper wrote:
.when somebody bets into you, you NEVER maximize your value by calling.

this is wrong

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explain please.

when is it more +ev to just call? the value is in folding or raising. calling is a neutral decision, with no value in any SINGLE hand on the river (i hope i am not being misunderstood...i am talking about the river betting only, as there is clearly value in calling a flop/turn bet). if you are ahead and calling, you make a mistake...you should have RAISED, technically. i understand you cannot always know when you are ahead for certain, but raising gives the opportunity to get called again. calling closes betting, and if there was more value to be had, this is a mistake. if you raise the bettor and he folds, there was no more MONETARY value in calling...you win his bet when he folds to your raise...you just dont get to see his cards.

read Theory of Poker.

EV is the Expected Value of a given action over time, not once. Of course if your opponent has AT a raise is +EV, because he'll either call and you win or fold and you win. We get that.

The point is, you must determine a RANGE for your opponent. Here, let's assume your opponent has and Ax.

A2-A6 - opponent folds to your raise. EV of raise is zero.

AJ - EV is 0

A3, A5, A8, A9,AQ,AK - EV of raise is -(whatever you raised).

AT - EV of raise is (whatever you raised).

According to you, the EV of betting me a dollar on a coin flip is either $1 or -$1. It is zero, always. If you know which way the coin is going to flip... I don't know what to tell you.

In order for a raise to show value here, your opponent must call with more hands you beat, or fold some hands that have you beat.

i guess i am being a dumbass here, and only thinking in terms of black/white, but i do see the longer term point. maybe "value" as a poker term is used incorrectly here, by me. but i think the raise on the river has...merit.

i am just confused as to why we only call the river? if we feel we are ahead, why not raise it up? if villain folds, who cares? we get the $25. if he calls, we maximize this hand.

if we just call, and think we are ahead, we only capture the $25 we called, and miss an opportunity to TRY for more, dont we?

i understand we may be wrong here. we may be beat, but wasnt the point of the post to extract as much as possible from a "bad aggro donk?" inwhich case, do we worry when he hits his Aces up on the river? no, we cant tell the difference when he hits or has Ax anyway. we take our chances and try to get as much as we can...when we can...within reason. and i think this hand, as played, is within reason.

what are are saying, in terms of my post, is this:

A2-A6, AT- opponent calls your raise. EV of raise is (your raise)

AJ - EV is 0

A3, A5, A8, A9,AQ,AK - opp rarely has these.

AT - EV of raise is (whatever you raised).

These are fine assumptions, if your opponent is this bad. This should in no way be your standard assumptions.

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i understand we may be wrong here.

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you say this, but you are ignoring the money you lose when you are wrong that you would have saved by checking behind.

I'll make it easy. You raise the 50 on the river Assume opp either has A2 or A9

A9 - you lose 50.
A2 - you win 50 (assume opp calls always)

EV = 0

You can see that if opp folds even once, in the long term your 50 dollar bet will not show a profit.

Now. If you add in more hands you beat that opp may call with, your EV goes up.

25 % A2
25 % A6
25% AJ
25% A9

Over 4 hands, you'll win 50 twice, lose 50 once, and gain 0 once. Your bet shows a 50 dollar profit. If you add in A8, A5... I hope you can see where this is going.

you are fixated on this

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if we feel we are ahead

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it doesn't matter if we're ahead right now when evaluating the raise. It only matters if we are ahead when the raise is called. [/quote]

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

you are fixated on this

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if we feel we are ahead

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it doesn't matter if we're ahead right now when evaluating the raise. It only matters if we are ahead when the raise is called.

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ya...it's sort of like taking the coin flip example, and saying before you toss it that you bet $1 on it landing heads, but they can choose to call the $1 after the coin has already landed heads or tails.

edit..hehe ok maybe thats not quite right...but the point is you don't want to give someone that chance to only call your bet when ur beat.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i am just confused as to why we only call the river? if we feel we are ahead, why not raise it up? if villain folds, who cares? we get the $25. if he calls, we maximize this hand.

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Maybe it becomes clearer if you would make a distinction between his betting-range and his calling-a-river-raise-range. There are situations were you are ahead of the first and behind the last, then raising is no good, but calling is.

And what drmcboy said.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

it doesn't matter if we're ahead right now when evaluating the raise. It only matters if we are ahead when the raise is called.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

In order for a raise to show value here, your opponent must call with more hands you beat (than hands that beat you)

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Read these two quotes over and over again until "UCY"

well, theres the slam i asked for. now i want to see it piled on!! lol.

this is a concept i have had trouble with since Jesus walked on water...value. i get putting villains on ranges, and using your past as advice on when to raise v. call. and here i see that he will only call a raise if hero is beat. but my (very lucky) instinct was to raise this time.

i dont know that he could call a raise w/ 66, but he might have. i wonder if he is capable of RRing w/ the same 66? in which case, i fold immediately.

thanks for the "coin flip" idea; it helped. and the "range of hands." i cant help but say i will forget these soon enough, and i will be back with my "binary" thinking, too.

just keep beating me over the head until i get it. ;)

Imagine an opponent who has a habit of making progressively larger bluffs on each street unless you raise him, in which case he folds all but the strongest portion of his range. Then you'll think calling is like candy.