Pot-sized call on River

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11-12-2006, 06:35 PM
Harry

Pot-sized call on River

New table, no reads.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $24.65
UTG+1: $26.10
CO: $14.45
Button: $16.75
SB: $10
BB: $18.80

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with Q:club: A:heart:
Hero raises to $1, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5:club: 4:diamond: 7:heart: ($2.1, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.5, BB calls.

Turn: 8:club: ($5.1, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: Q:spade: ($5.1, 2 players)
BB bets $5.1, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $15.3
11-12-2006, 07:47 PM
Memeon

I think i check/fold every street.... possibly call really small bet on river.

BB is likely to hit that flop, i would say his check on the turn is c/r intentional. I don't see the call on the river ever being anything but -EV.
11-12-2006, 09:30 PM
UG

check/fold turn and river once he calls on the flop
11-12-2006, 10:08 PM
elipsesjeff

I don't mind the river call.
11-12-2006, 10:13 PM
nutsinho

i don't see any reason to call
11-12-2006, 10:16 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

BB is likely to hit that flop

why?
11-12-2006, 10:18 PM
Memeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I don't mind the river call.

Calling off like 30% of his stack with TP on a scary board?
11-13-2006, 01:03 AM
Harry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

I think i check/fold every street.... possibly call really small bet on river.

BB is likely to hit that flop, i would say his check on the turn is c/r intentional. I don't see the call on the river ever being anything but -EV.

I don't understand what about his call from the BB suggests he hit that flop, and justifies not c-betting when checked to.
11-13-2006, 01:05 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

I think i check/fold every street.... possibly call really small bet on river.

BB is likely to hit that flop, i would say his check on the turn is c/r intentional. I don't see the call on the river ever being anything but -EV.

I don't understand what about his call from the BB suggests he hit that flop, and justifies not c-betting when checked to.

don't pay attention to that line about bb being likely to hit harry. cbet is fine. just something to keep in mind though...calling too many river bets like this adds up fast.
11-13-2006, 01:09 AM
Memeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

I think i check/fold every street.... possibly call really small bet on river.

BB is likely to hit that flop, i would say his check on the turn is c/r intentional. I don't see the call on the river ever being anything but -EV.

I don't understand what about his call from the BB suggests he hit that flop, and justifies not c-betting when checked to.

I never said it doesn't justify a continuation bet... I said i don't like the flop.

Also BB checking to you is inmaterial to the hand, what hands is bb going to come out betting? he pretty much always checks here.

I still check/fold turn and check/fold river unless a small bet.

Considering the range of hands that are beating you, calling a pot sized bet on the river with top pair is going to be -EV, whether or not you was correct this time. Plus like i said im not in the habit of calling like 30% of my stack with only top pair.
11-13-2006, 01:14 AM
Memeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't pay attention to that line about bb being likely to hit harry. cbet is fine. just something to keep in mind though...calling too many river bets like this adds up fast.

WTF Martin? :?

I think you read a bit much into what i was meaning to say. Basically i don't like c-betting here against loose low stakes player. He is not going anywhere if he has any piece of this. I never said C-betting was a bad play, nor did i mean to insinuate that he is always behind to BB.

Read my post above. If you think calling river bet here is good play, then good luck to you
11-13-2006, 01:47 AM
Harry

I agree with the river analysis btw Memeon. I think I have been bleeding money on rivers like this without putting villains on hands.
11-13-2006, 02:24 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

don't pay attention to that line about bb being likely to hit harry. cbet is fine. just something to keep in mind though...calling too many river bets like this adds up fast.

WTF Martin? :?

I think you read a bit much into what i was meaning to say. Basically i don't like c-betting here against loose low stakes player. He is not going anywhere if he has any piece of this. I never said C-betting was a bad play, nor did i mean to insinuate that he is always behind to BB.

Read my post above. If you think calling river bet here is good play, then good luck to you

ok well you said you check/fold every street followed by "bb is likely to hit that flop." that sounded like "don't cbet" to me. regarding a river call...i never said it's a good play. what i said about the river was "calling too many river bets like this adds up fast" as in "don't call." sorry for misunderstandings.
11-13-2006, 09:07 AM
nutsinho

I check behind 75-80% of the time on this flop at any stakes without a read that bb is calling preflop with random overcards a lot. It's not a bad thing; no one folds a pair/draw on that flop.
11-13-2006, 09:25 AM
biondino

That river call is a must. Villain hit a pair on the flop, hasn't improved and is trying to take down a small pot after turn weakness.
11-13-2006, 10:30 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

That river call is a must.

Disagree.

Anyway, I make this call from time to time. Sometimes I see something stupid, usually it's a hand though.

The PSB is a pretty key part of figuring out this puzzle.
11-13-2006, 12:14 PM
Renton

fold river, he has str8 mostly, or he rivered a set or something, this is almsot never a bluff
11-13-2006, 01:09 PM
Fnord

...just thought I'd add that quite often when I call a bet like this, it's with 2 pair or better.
11-13-2006, 04:08 PM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

Plus like i said im not in the habit of calling like 30% of my stack with only top pair.

This statement is ridiculous.

First (and less important) it's $5 with $22 behind. This is 22%.

Second, who cares what percentage of your stack it is? How does that have any baring on the eV of the hand?
11-13-2006, 04:25 PM
Ash256

I hate calling here but I sometimes find myself doing it anyway out of stupidity. He's got you beat.
11-13-2006, 05:45 PM
Memeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memeon

Plus like i said im not in the habit of calling like 30% of my stack with only top pair.

This statement is ridiculous.

First (and less important) it's $5 with $22 behind. This is 22%.

Second, who cares what percentage of your stack it is? How does that have any baring on the eV of the hand?

Jesus, a few heated people on FTR... Asking a little more politely works a treat.

30% was just approx, ok i made a mistake for not actually looking at the hand properly?!?!?!?! :roll:

What i meant is i prefer to play pots on earlier streets unless i have the nuts (or drawing). I very rarely put in a small c-bet, check turn and call pot bet on river with only top pair on that board. Just bad play.
11-13-2006, 07:12 PM
elipsesjeff

If you have a habit of cbetting a lot and then taking free cards on turns, calling the river bet with TPTK is pretty much a given.

You have to think here that given the skill level of opponents, a pot-size river bet is more a bet that doesn't want a call than one hoping to get one.

Folding TPTK on this river will start to add up quick.
11-13-2006, 09:53 PM
outphase

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If you have a habit of cbetting a lot and then taking free cards on turns, calling the river bet with TPTK is pretty much a given.

You have to think here that given the skill level of opponents, a pot-size river bet is more a bet that doesn't want a call than one hoping to get one.

Folding TPTK on this river will start to add up quick.

I think jeff just used the whole "it's low stakes" argument in a way that works also.
11-14-2006, 02:35 AM
TerryToma

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

I hate calling here but I sometimes find myself doing it anyway out of stupidity. He's got you beat.

i call about 85% of the time here and watch my chips slide away.
11-14-2006, 04:36 AM
Jager

I'd call, hes just as likely to have 99 as he is to have the str8. If you lose at least you'll gain the knowledge of how he plays his big hands so next time you can adjust accordingly. I've been seeing a ton of PS river bluffs lately at least one every 200-300 hands.
11-14-2006, 11:14 AM
Al_Foster

With no read, You should wait for a better opportunity, If villain is a donk then you'll get it back.

My first post as a newbie, probably wrong but its my thoughts.