50NL - so uh, ya

4th hand at table

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($51.20)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($50)
UTG ($77.65)
MP ($76.25)
CO ($85.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, UTG raises to $10, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($20.75) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $12, Hero ???

Hero has $41 behind, UTG has him covered

I don't think you can fold this now, but I'd just call the flop, prob a wa/wb...not sure about calling the 4bet pre flop though.

I fold and I fold pf as well. Yes the pf part is weak, but then you get yourself in this position.

Some sort of read would be good here.

Unless the villain is really tight I should imagine JJ+ and perhaps AQ+ are in the range. Perhaps hard to see the c-bet from AQ. I'd say that you're up against AK/QQ often enough to make this worth stacking off though.
The backdoor flush draw may make up for the number of split pots this generates.

If you're going to fold this then you have to fold preflop because youre basically folding to anything that's not AAx, KKx or TJQ.

just shove, if he has AA sorry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

just shove, if he has AA sorry

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You call pre-flop?

i dont fold to minreraises ever

His flop bet is quite small, only $12 into a ~$20 pot with a King and a flush draw. Especially when we remember he was happy to put in $10 before the flop!

If we assume he is a standard Stars rock who is only 3 betting his AA-KK preflop this bet is unusual on this board (I think) and normally he would bet much stronger against the heart draw. Indeed thats why sets are so good against these guys as they bet enough to get it all in on the flop no problem. To me it looks like a QQ that feels it 'has' to bet but doesnt really want to. Of course it could be a bet designed to look like this if the guy is a bit tricky!

As he is already starting to show weakness, or at least pretend to, I think you can:

1. Call and see what he will do on the turn, QQ will probably grind to a halt and check. Letting you bet him off. Also if you bluff at any heart you will probably take the pot.

2. Re-raise him to say $25, QQ etc. probably folds there; he's happy as he got his info, you're happy as you got his $$. If he pushes over you probably time to fold.

3. Push over him, pay off AA and maby get a crying call from hands you beat. However if we assume he has a big PP of some description do we really want to scare him off yet?

To be honest I don't really know what is the best! I normally wouldnt play AK into a re-re-raise PF. However if you do and hit I dont think you can give up the hand at the first sign of life from the opposition, especially when you have position on him. I'd probably call and see what the turn brings, looking to bet him off hand (option 1).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

just shove, if he has AA sorry

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Sounds like the best way to win the least when ahead and lose the most when behind. Is this better than flat calling? Are we trying to fold out another AK because I only see AA and another K calling a push here, and villain doesn't have KQ enough to make it worth while. I like the call and hope villain pushes the turn with an overplayed QQ, but I'm not folding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

just shove, if he has AA sorry

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Sounds like the best way to win the least when ahead and lose the most when behind. Is this better than flat calling? Are we trying to fold out another AK because I only see AA and another K calling a push here, and villain doesn't have KQ enough to make it worth while. I like the call and hope villain pushes the turn with an overplayed QQ, but I'm not folding.

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if villian has QQ, i think the best chance we have to get their money in is to push flop and hope they think we are bluffing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

just shove, if he has AA sorry

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Sounds like the best way to win the least when ahead and lose the most when behind. Is this better than flat calling? Are we trying to fold out another AK because I only see AA and another K calling a push here, and villain doesn't have KQ enough to make it worth while. I like the call and hope villain pushes the turn with an overplayed QQ, but I'm not folding.

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if villian has QQ, i think the best chance we have to get their money in is to push flop and hope they think we are bluffing

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But what about every other possible 4-bet holding?

im just saying that you said you liked a call because you think it will get the most out of QQ, but i think pushing will get the most out of QQ

kinda interesting I just had a real similar hand, and tried pushing. time ticked all the way down, so I guess villain ALMOST called.
He asked what I had and I said jacks (actually had AK..) but that I put him on QQ.
He said he had QQ, and people someone started chatting that he should've called. He's like, "yea, but I didn't have the balls." hehe...
anyway cool suggestion gabe, I think I'll try this out more.