Trying to open up my game...

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11-24-2006, 09:32 PM
Kits

Trying to open up my game...

So ABC poker has treated me well at NL25 and I'm running at just under 10bb with consistent winning sessions. However, I feel like my game is not developing enough and I want to start playing real poker. My goals are to:

- make more read dependent moves
- raise more and increase my aggression
- 3 bet without AA or KK
- float occasionally (something I'm quite uncomfortable with atm)

Comments please. Apologies if some of these are standard.

HAND 1 - Villain is 67/13 and seems to be happy to be involved in everything.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($26.30)
BB ($15.38)
UTG ($27.68)
MP ($26.16)
Hero ($27.56)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75, UTG folds

Flop: ($6) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3.2, SB folds, BB calls $2.20.

Turn: ($6) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $2, Hero raises to $7

HAND 2 - Same villain again. This time 4 way.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($27.65)
Button ($25.68)
SB ($27.18)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($24)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, Hero checks

Flop: ($2.60) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Turn: ($2.60) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, UTG calls $3, Button raises to $5.5, SB folds, Hero calls $2.50, UTG calls $2.50.

River: ($19.60) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7, UTG folds,Hero is all in $18.75

HAND 3 - Is it just spewy to have three shots at this pot with nothing?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($25.10)
SB ($21.64)
Hero ($23.50)
UTG ($9.80)
MP ($25.89)
CO ($3.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($5) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $5, SB calls $3.

River: ($15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8.

HAND 4 - UTG is 64/28 & BB is solid Tagg 22/11

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($17.90)
Hero ($25.35)
BB ($26)
UTG ($32.15)
MP ($29.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.1, BB raises to $3.25, UTG calls $3.25, Hero raises to $14.9, BB folds, UTG calls $11.50.

Flop: ($33.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero is all in $10.35

HAND 5 - BB is 27/16 and slow played AK the previous hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($36.40)
MP ($24.40)
Button ($65.21)
Hero ($25.15)
BB ($25.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB raises to $14.5, Hero raises $9.65 and is all in
11-24-2006, 09:45 PM
Pelion

I cant be bothered to look past the first hand cos im too drunk :p

Hand #1. If hes involved in everything im happy to limp preflop. Name of the game here is to make a hand and either bet it hard or let him bet it hard for you. There is no point betting 77 preflop since you will have no idea where you stand postflop. Against this sort of opponent you need to open up with 2 *big card* type hands i.e. ATo is playable but small hands like 77OOP are unplayable. in position i dont mind it so much but id rather have 2 biguns.

I think its pretty important that if you want to cbet do it properly. $4 minimum. If you dont then check.

sleep time now.
11-24-2006, 10:40 PM
Kits

big night eh? haha.
11-24-2006, 11:13 PM
jackvance

Maybe it's just my nitty self but some of these hands look a lot like spewing chips randomly..
11-24-2006, 11:47 PM
pgil

the T7 hand in particular seems extremely spewy. multiway pot with 2nd pair after a possible draw completes you decide to check-raise the turn. i think keeping the pot small is the name of the game here, if you want to continue with the hand. the C-R push on the river also seems odd.

it just doesn't make sense. what hand are you trying to represent here? maybe a 9, but I still think opp will call if he's got the straight, and def if he's got the K.

basically, once he 3-bets you on the turn after he min bet into many people twice, it's time to reevaluate taking this pot off of him.
11-25-2006, 02:10 AM
Kits

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Maybe it's just my nitty self but some of these hands look a lot like spewing chips randomly..

Very probably. Care to fix my lines?
11-25-2006, 02:30 AM
Kits

Thanks pgil. That hand was completely awful :oops: . Should I have just check/folded the turn?

As played op was always going to try and take down the pot on the turn/river. He was very aggressive and had been making plays like this regularly and I decided to take a stand at a pretty retarded time. He didn't have a K or the straight though......

What I am having trouble with is picking spots to play back at aggressive players. I would easily consider myself a weak/tight nit and that is what I want to change. Let the learning begin.
11-25-2006, 09:59 AM
Pelion

I said that a little wrong. I didnt mean 77 was unplayable I just mean you should be less willing to raise speculative hands and more willing to raise weaker big hands.

e.g. in a tight game you raise 55 because

a) People wont stack off in an unraised pot without a monster.
b) you stand a reasonable chance of taking the blinds/ flop pot with a cbet anyway.

In a loose game where people are calling down with weak hands you cant steal and people will stack off (or come close) in unraised pots with top pair. This means you raise (to isolate) with more hands that can make TPGK but you are more likely to limp speculative hands and only bet them once they hit.
11-25-2006, 10:41 AM
jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kits

Very probably. Care to fix my lines?

Villain in hand 1 and 2 seems to be rather loose.. it's not very profitable to try and bluff someone like that. And in hand 2, it is doubtful he is going to be folding the river given the action.. if you really think he is making a play why don't you just call him down then since your hand has showdown value. In hand 3 the turn raise is kinda weakish, just a general rule I'd always make someone pay the pot again when raising. Also on the river you're betting kind of weakish again for a real hand. Hand 4 and 5.. in many of the lower stakes games the only reraising is done with AA/KK, so I'd make sure your opp was a bit more aggro than that to be falting QQ so quickly.
11-25-2006, 10:57 AM
Pelion

Re: Trying to open up my game...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kits

- make more read dependent moves -Good.
- raise more and increase my aggression -Why?
- 3 bet without AA or KK -Why?
- float occasionally (something I'm quite uncomfortable with atm) -Who?

You sound like you are trying to design a style and then hoping it will beat the game rather than designing a style THAT WILL beat the game. Its all about knowing your players.

If you arent going to be raised without AA, KK then why start 3 betting with less? My experience of alot of low stakes games is that a preflop reraise means AA-QQ, AK from an awful lot of players.

Every one of your points might increase or decrease your winrate. Make sure you are changing your game because you think a different way will actually make you more money and not just because you want to feel clever about your game. If abc poker is optimum then stick to it.
11-26-2006, 07:15 AM
Kits

Thanks Jack that all makes a lot of sense.

Pelion - I have noticed occasionally I really REALLY get pushed around by aggro players. I think my table image suffers as a result and sometimes others jump on the bandwagon when they know I will fold to a re-raise. I have no problem with this when I am getting hands but I think I am losing a lot of value from hands like 1010 - QQ and even when I raise smaller pocket pairs only to be pushed around. Without decents reads which I am still learning it kind of leaves me in no mans land on how to effectively deal with these types.

In hand 4 villain called with 89s and in hand 5 villain raised with AK. Is folding either one of these hands an option because that is what my weak tightness often leads me to do?

Thanks for the advice and I will make sure I don't force things to compromise what has been a pretty good start to my poker playing.
11-26-2006, 01:10 PM
swiggidy

3xBB raises get zero respect. Make your standard 4xBB. That lets your betting on all further rounds be bigger.

If you standard flop bet is 1/2 pot then you are going to face a lot of raises because it looks like a steal. Bet ~full pot on flop then 3/4 on turn. If you're still getting pushed around don't cbet without a made hand. If it's a 64/25 post flop maniac be willing to felt TPTK, you'll run into some who will call off with an underpair. If you're against a 22/11 TAG who's tight post-flop be more wary.