Hmmm, I wonder what he has.

Printable View

11-26-2006, 03:15 AM
Lukie

Hmmm, I wonder what he has.

Stars 2/4 6-handed, CO and I have 400. BB covers.

I open to 16 with kings UTG. I probably have one of the tighter ranges here of the 2/4 regs. 1 fold to the CO who triples my bet, making it 48. This guy is multitabling but I'm not really familiar with his play as I havn't really played a whole lot with him. I think his range is fairly tight. Neither of us are getting out of line, that's for sure.

Folds to the BB, a good 25/20 tagg/laggish type, who makes it 125 straight. I've played with him a lot and he very rarely 4-bets pre. I've never seen him do it cold, and certainly not into a UTG raiser with a 3-bettor back. I actually think this is a pretty easy fold, certainly not because BB will have AA here every time, but I think he will have it enough where folding is the best play. I think it's reasonable to give him a very tight range here and weight it heavily towards the top.

I don't really know why I made this post. Maybe because I want to get views from other short-handed players. :!:

FWIW, my initial reaction (OMG KINGS!) was to just push, but if we're not folding, I think calling is the better play. I was actually hoping that THIS would be where the direction of the thread would go (what to do with a huge hand that isn't aces facing a 4-bet pre) instead of the always old 'can you ever fold KK preflop' debate.
11-26-2006, 04:19 AM
Fnord

I'd fold and not feel too bad if it was the best hand.
11-26-2006, 07:33 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'd fold and not feel too bad if it was the best hand.

yeah... to be honest, there is a lot of money in 4-betting cold against 2 asshats that are raising and reraising everywhere (there was a thread on 2p2 about this a while back), but from my experience, it is AA an absurdly high % of the time.

That said, this game was actually playing pretty nitty which is why I felt that it was a relatively easy decision.
11-26-2006, 09:36 AM
Renton

the fact that u only have 4bb invested helps a lot. I don't know that a call or shove line is as bad as you think it is, but im probably still folding here.

What I don't like seeing is the fact that villain in BB is a lagg. I think he's certainly capable of having AK here, and the trouble with making this laydown is that you have to be right ALOT of the time, for it to be the right play.
11-26-2006, 12:38 PM
gabe

i would never fold this against TAGs, they smooth call with AA too much vs a raise and a reraise. also, they hardly ever fold QQ and AK here.
11-26-2006, 07:23 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

I think that the BB has a dilemma here if he sits there with QQ and AK. He can't call because he'll be completely OOP to two people and he may be afraid that you'll push anyways. I think it's actually likely that he puts that raise in with QQ or AK (and don't rule out KK), so i think it's just pushy time for you.

Don't even try to defy my logic!
11-27-2006, 02:04 AM
Lukie

Given position, images, etc, I think this 4-bet is very rarely QQ or worse. I think it's really weighted towards AA/KK, but even against a range of AA/KK/AK, this is still a fold.
11-27-2006, 02:08 AM
gabe

i dont, i see AK/QQ here more. TAGs seem to hate to reraise AA here.
11-27-2006, 02:15 AM
Numbr2intheWorld

I thought you were a loosey goosey? And also 4-betting situations , especially where the opp 4-betted without acting beforehand, are rare. I rarely see anyone 4-bet, ever, so i'm not surprised that you haven't seen this guy do it much at all.

Also, i think the length of time before he made his 4-betting is important. With a hand like QQ or AK, he'd probably take a while to make his decision, but i'm sure if there was anything like that you would've posted it.

I just can't get myself to take QQ out of his range.
11-27-2006, 05:34 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i dont, i see AK/QQ here more. TAGs seem to hate to reraise AA here.

awful tags seem to hate to reraise AA here. I think this guy is very solid.
11-27-2006, 08:01 AM
johnny_fish

Re: Hmmm, I wonder what he has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

FWIW, my initial reaction (OMG KINGS!) was to just push, but if we're not folding, I think calling is the better play.

You're giving a great price to CO to see the flop..

And what's your flop play? Shove any non-A flop?
11-27-2006, 09:12 AM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i dont, i see AK/QQ here more. TAGs seem to hate to reraise AA here.

awful tags seem to hate to reraise AA here. I think this guy is very solid.

if hes very solid that makes QQ/AK even more likely.........do u c y
11-27-2006, 09:34 AM
bode

with only 4BB invested, i dont hate the fold, but in a shorthanded game (which im not accustom to), i would think QQ/AK are in his range here enough to call here.
11-27-2006, 11:20 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i dont, i see AK/QQ here more. TAGs seem to hate to reraise AA here.

awful tags seem to hate to reraise AA here. I think this guy is very solid.

if hes very solid that makes QQ/AK even more likely.........do u c y

no, because he can't possibly think that I'm going to be mucking kings here. Even moreso, he has to be a lot more worried about the button then me. I think the button has a tight range here. As I said before, I think this is quite rarely QQ in this situation, and even if we put him on a range of KK/AA/AK, this is still a fold. ducy? I think it would be dumb to not put him on a crazy tight range and not weight it towards the TOP of that range, not the bottom like you are suggesting.
11-27-2006, 11:37 AM
Lukie

Re: Hmmm, I wonder what he has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

FWIW, my initial reaction (OMG KINGS!) was to just push, but if we're not folding, I think calling is the better play.

You're giving a great price to CO to see the flop..

And what's your flop play? Shove any non-A flop?

hmmm, these are good points. The thing is though, in order to shove, we're going to have to put the BB on a range that includes worse pairs, or more specifically QQ, and weight it such that it still makes sense. I expect to see AA here like 5 or 10 times as often as QQ.

In that case, I'm not overly thrilled about pushing my kings into the button who I expect to have a tight range (as a wild guess, maybe JJ+/AK), who will obviously only call a push with AA.. calling with the last combo of KK seems pretty terrible but unimportant). It's possible that it could still be the right move given the amount of dead money in the pot but I have no interest in writing up an equity calculation to figure this all out because it would just become a mess.
11-27-2006, 11:54 AM
Numbr2intheWorld

Hmmm, i almost completely forgot about the CO here...

I'm starting to think that a fold here can't be bad.