Shortstack hands

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11-28-2006, 06:48 PM
euphoricism

Shortstack hands

No real reads, stupid table. BB is a solid regular, but he's not involved. Should I be reraising here preflop? I definitely felt I had the best hand, but then i was stuck. CBetting is pointless, so its push or check/fold, right?

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #37040665-12497 at North Pole (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 28/Nov/06 18:42:45

yalepoker is at seat 0 with $48.60.
xDreamWeaver is at seat 1 with $10.75.
Mike_Modano is at seat 2 with $3.80.
kylel0926 is at seat 3 with $29.55.
akbabycakes is at seat 4 with $8.75.
Gab81 is at seat 5 with $14.95.
The button is at seat 0.

xDreamWeaver posts the small blind of $.10.
Mike_Modano posts the big blind of $.25.

yalepoker: -- --
xDreamWeaver: :Ac: :Qs:
Mike_Modano: -- --
kylel0926: -- --
akbabycakes: -- --
Gab81: -- --

Pre-flop:

kylel0926 folds. akbabycakes calls. Gab81 calls.
yalepoker calls. xDreamWeaver raises to $2.10.
Mike_Modano folds. akbabycakes calls. Gab81 folds.
yalepoker folds.

Flop (board: :5s: :9h: :Td:):

xDreamWeaver goes all-in for $8.65.
11-28-2006, 07:19 PM
euphoricism

EZ Call with half my stack in, right?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($4.10)
Hero ($10.95)
Button ($16.60)
SB ($21.95)
BB ($27.95)
UTG ($22.60)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB calls $1.

Turn: ($4.10) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $4.95 (All-In).
11-29-2006, 11:59 AM
euphoricism

bump?
11-29-2006, 12:38 PM
johnny_fish

1: Check flop and see what happens. You'll get more value out of worse hands that way.
2: check turn obv. Flop bet is too low.
11-29-2006, 12:48 PM
euphoricism

I think I do this way too much. But I cant think of a better line..

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($36.20)
Hero ($10.90)
BB ($5.90)
UTG ($36.10)
MP ($21.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
2 folds, Button raises to $1, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($6.25) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7.9 (All-In)
11-29-2006, 12:52 PM
johnny_fish

Let them bluff! :)

Why are you shortstackin' anyway?
11-29-2006, 01:13 PM
euphoricism

A) Limits my mistakes cost-wise
B) Magnifies my opponents mistakes (they love to call me with all sorts of draws because I'm a shorty, but they just dont have the odds to do it.)
11-29-2006, 02:17 PM
elipsesjeff

The key to shortstacking is not spewing postflop when you brick horribly!
11-29-2006, 02:32 PM
euphoricism

indeed. But its also about making villains make tough decisions.
11-29-2006, 02:34 PM
euphoricism

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($38.65)
UTG ($21.10)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($20.10)
Hero ($9.55)
SB ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($3.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $23.6, Hero... ?

Really shitty spot. I want to fold, can you?
11-29-2006, 02:39 PM
euphoricism

Ugh nevmind thats an obv fold.
11-29-2006, 02:41 PM
elipsesjeff

What? No way. Shortstacking is about catching TP then stacking off. If you can't handle these decisions then you either need to A) tighten up your range or B) stop shortstacking.

I believe KJs is not a raise for shortstacking, if you want to limp thats fine. But I believe if you put 45% of your stack in on the flop, I don't see how you can fold TP.

Tighten up your raising range it'll make your job a lot easier IMO.
11-29-2006, 02:42 PM
mcatdog

shortstacking 25NL won't help you improve your game
11-29-2006, 03:15 PM
euphoricism

My bankroll needs more improving than my game does right now ;/
11-29-2006, 05:15 PM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($38.65)
UTG ($21.10)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($20.10)
Hero ($9.55)
SB ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($3.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $23.6, Hero... ?

Really shitty spot. I want to fold, can you?

Half your stack is in, ridiculously easy call. As EJ said, shortstacking is about getting all in with top pair / overpair and not thinking twice about it. Making big folds getting 3-1 with top pair as a shortstack is a certain mistake.

I also really don't understand the shortstacking, you don't feel you have an edge in a 25nl game full stacked?
11-29-2006, 07:22 PM
euphoricism

Its a confidence issue. I'm just not confident, my roll has been decimated over the last x months, and I'm just well, not confident.

Also, I need to eat.
11-29-2006, 07:37 PM
elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Its a confidence issue. I'm just not confident, my roll has been decimated over the last x months, and I'm just well, not confident.

Also, I need to eat.

Get a Job.
11-29-2006, 07:48 PM
mcatdog

If you're shortstacking 25NL to put food on the table, I think you should take a long hard look at quitting poker. JMO.
11-29-2006, 08:26 PM
euphoricism

You guys suck at humor.
11-29-2006, 11:22 PM
mcatdog

Even if the "eating" comment was a joke, I stand by my comment that you're better off finding a new hobby if you're shortstacking 25NL because you don't have the confidence to play it full-stacked.

If you just want to play a few hours a week for fun, then obviously, screw around at 25NL all you want. But if you actually want to make some money, you need to be playing 100NL at a minimum before this this game is really worth the time, otherwise you're better off getting a job. Playing lower stakes than that is only worthwhile insofar as it improves your bankroll and skill until you get there, which shortstacking really doesn't do so it's just a waste of time in my opinion.
11-30-2006, 12:06 AM
euphoricism

I think thats silly.

Guess my hourly rate over my last 10k hands shorstacking 25NL? Its certainly and significantly more than I can earn at a job available to a college kid two years away from graduation.

I can also play it in my underwear, and thats worth a good $10/hour right there.
11-30-2006, 12:17 AM
euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($38.65)
UTG ($21.10)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($20.10)
Hero ($9.55)
SB ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($3.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $23.6, Hero... ?

Really shitty spot. I want to fold, can you?

Half your stack is in, ridiculously easy call. As EJ said, shortstacking is about getting all in with top pair / overpair and not thinking twice about it. Making big folds getting 3-1 with top pair as a shortstack is a certain mistake.

I did call, and felt alright about it, but I posted because I'm questioning it. I beat exactly KT at this point, and practically nothing else. But literally half of my stack is indeed already in there. That means I need to call ~$5 to win 20. Giving me exactly 4:1 on the call... I think I need to be good here way more than I will be.

If I had KQ, or AK this would be EZ$. But the J sucks because I'm almost guarenteed to be outkicked. I think jeffs right with just limping along with KJ. But that "feels" wrong.

Maybe just too results oriented.
11-30-2006, 04:22 AM
aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($38.65)
UTG ($21.10)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($20.10)
Hero ($9.55)
SB ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($3.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $23.6, Hero... ?

Really shitty spot. I want to fold, can you?

Half your stack is in, ridiculously easy call. As EJ said, shortstacking is about getting all in with top pair / overpair and not thinking twice about it. Making big folds getting 3-1 with top pair as a shortstack is a certain mistake.

I did call, and felt alright about it, but I posted because I'm questioning it. I beat exactly KT at this point, and practically nothing else. But literally half of my stack is indeed already in there. That means I need to call ~$5 to win 20. Giving me exactly 4:1 on the call... I think I need to be good here way more than I will be.

If I had KQ, or AK this would be EZ$. But the J sucks because I'm almost guarenteed to be outkicked. I think jeffs right with just limping along with KJ. But that "feels" wrong.

Maybe just too results oriented.

This is 25nl man, players are playing K5o to a raise and felt any time they hit top pair. Hell if I were in SB's shoes I could put you in on the flop with a wide range of hands thinking I'm good. If you think some guy needs AK/KQ to stack off at 25nl, consider this: He is probably drunk and doesn't give a fuck if wins or loses. Stop overthinking yourself bro.
11-30-2006, 04:25 AM
Staresy

I wish you would have bought in full last night ;)

Just out of curiousity - how many tables you play at once Eupho (I know I was on 2 of yours). Maybe you could cut down and buy-in full on those (i.e. fewer tables, deeper stacks).
11-30-2006, 07:41 AM
Lukie

NL10. Even that might be pushing it. I am being 100% serious and I'm trying to help.
11-30-2006, 08:54 AM
jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think thats silly.

Guess my hourly rate over my last 10k hands shorstacking 25NL? Its certainly and significantly more than I can earn at a job available to a college kid two years away from graduation.

I can also play it in my underwear, and thats worth a good $10/hour right there.

I have to agree.. if you found a way to play profitably for yourself, that's perfectly fine imo. Not everyone is destined to become a winning 1000NL player..
11-30-2006, 09:46 AM
euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by aislephive

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($38.65)
UTG ($21.10)
MP ($24.70)
CO ($20.10)
Hero ($9.55)
SB ($25.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($3.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $23.6, Hero... ?

Really shitty spot. I want to fold, can you?

Half your stack is in, ridiculously easy call. As EJ said, shortstacking is about getting all in with top pair / overpair and not thinking twice about it. Making big folds getting 3-1 with top pair as a shortstack is a certain mistake.

I did call, and felt alright about it, but I posted because I'm questioning it. I beat exactly KT at this point, and practically nothing else. But literally half of my stack is indeed already in there. That means I need to call ~$5 to win 20. Giving me exactly 4:1 on the call... I think I need to be good here way more than I will be.

If I had KQ, or AK this would be EZ$. But the J sucks because I'm almost guarenteed to be outkicked. I think jeffs right with just limping along with KJ. But that "feels" wrong.

Maybe just too results oriented.

This is 25nl man, players are playing K5o to a raise and felt any time they hit top pair. Hell if I were in SB's shoes I could put you in on the flop with a wide range of hands thinking I'm good. If you think some guy needs AK/KQ to stack off at 25nl, consider this: He is probably drunk and doesn't give a fuck if wins or loses. Stop overthinking yourself bro.

Thats absolutely not been my experience. I think everyone underestimates the typical 25NL player.
11-30-2006, 10:06 AM
euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staresy

I wish you would have bought in full last night ;)

Just out of curiousity - how many tables you play at once Eupho (I know I was on 2 of yours). Maybe you could cut down and buy-in full on those (i.e. fewer tables, deeper stacks).

If I had bought in full, you wouldnt have gotten my stack on that hand. It was pretty much the exact hand above, I get c/r'd AI by a fairly solid player -- calling with top pair appears suicidal.

I play 4 tables at a time most often. Sometimes 6 if I feel good about my game at the time.
11-30-2006, 10:18 AM
euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

NL10. Even that might be pushing it. I am being 100% serious and I'm trying to help.

Eh, I tried. I couldn't take it seriously, my hourly rate just blew and this made me pull up 9 tables to try and bring it up. Fullstacking 10NL was significantly less profitable than buying in $10 to 25NL. Its the "omg he pushed AI he's got the nuts I fold" vs "Eh he's a shorty, he's got crap I'll call" mindsets.

Once I'm back rolled for the 50NL game, I'll (probably) play it fullstacked. I'll want around 2k in the roll at that point to give me 40 buyins, which is 150 more halfstack-doubleups to me. Averaging around 8ish/day but discounted because I'll lose some time with finals coming up.. well, I can definitely do it by christmas.
11-30-2006, 12:59 PM
spoonitnow

Good luck bro
11-30-2006, 02:15 PM
euphoricism

Thanks spoon. Now to get my thread back on track...

I was tempted to push the flop, but I figured with that many cold calls there were definitely some pocket pairs out and I was behind. But then I was stuck. Fold flop? Peel and evaluate turn? I was gettin some $$$ draw odds, but I could be completely dead.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($15)
CO ($15)
Hero ($12.45)
SB ($12.65)
BB ($46.60)
UTG ($6.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.25. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises to $1.75, SB calls $1.65, BB calls $1.50, MP calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.75) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB folds.

Turn: ($16.75) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP bets $1.25, CO calls $1.25, Hero folds...