Shortstack Spew?

More of the same situation but I have a somewhat decent hand. Thing is, against his range, its crap. I get really stuck here. I just feel like as a shorty I should be in control of the situation, and if I'm going to crash and burn I should be driving the car. Almost all of my shortstack losses are places i just call, and almost all my wins are places I push.

Fold preflop? Fold flop? Push preflop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($17.85)
SB ($24.90)
BB ($46.20)
UTG ($21.15)
Hero ($9.30)
CO ($24)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $2, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($9.10) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets $6.25, Hero raises to $6.3 (all in)

Just shove pre-flop.

I dont see anyone I beat calling a shove. Their range from the blinds is maaaaybe JJ+/AK and really discounting the AK. And I just dont see any folding equity either.

Now if button had been the reraiser I could see a shove because his range is significantly wider.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($14.35)
Hero ($10.80)
UTG ($25.70)
MP ($24.65)
CO ($26.70)
Button ($76.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
UTG raises to $1, 4 folds, Hero raises to $10.8, UTG calls $9.80.

Flop: ($21.70) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)

Turn: ($21.70) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)

River: ($21.70) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $21.70

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc Qh (two pair, queens and twos).
UTG has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: UTG wins $21.70.

You give them too much credit.

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

You give them too much credit.

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euph, you quickly forget these are the same retards who give us great entertainment with shit like K8o vs 95s aipf for 150BB each.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I dont see anyone I beat calling a shove. Their range from the blinds is maaaaybe JJ+/AK and really discounting the AK. And I just dont see any folding equity either.

Now if button had been the reraiser I could see a shove because his range is significantly wider.

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FOLD PREFLOP THEN WHEN HE PUTS IN THE 3-BET IF YOU'RE GOING TO THINK LIKE THIS.

These situations are going to come up if you're shortstacking. You play big pots with big hands. If you ran into QQ/AA here, FUCK IT, it's a half buy-in, move on, next hand sir.

I dont think you guys give them enough credit at all.
I am approaching 10k hands and I have yet to see a full stack do anything particularly foolish AIPF. The guys with $6 left, yes. Just had a guy push 6Ts but he had $4 left.

It may be enlightening for some of you ballas to play 1 or 2k hands at these stakes.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I dont think you guys give them enough credit at all.
I am approaching 10k hands and I have yet to see a full stack do anything particularly foolish AIPF. The guys with $6 left, yes. Just had a guy push 6Ts but he had $4 left.

It may be enlightening for some of you ballas to play 1 or 2k hands at these stakes.

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I've done it. DRUNK. Over 1.1k hands I think I was at 17ptbb/100. I was also 25/19 or so at the tables.

And I'm not kidding.


EDIT: I changed my vpip/pfr stats, I had them a little too high at first. And it's actually over only 900 hands.

I had similar results when I was Lagging it up around 35/25, fwiw.

I was actually at 35.06 ptbb/100 too

Can't give advice but I have to agree with Euph. I'm not saying 25NL players are unbelievable but you'll find a lot of solid regulars there. I do agree that few (and a lot more than in the higher stakes) are absolutely horrible.

Solid regulars do not equal nut camping multitablers. Fwiw, the highest stakes I've regularly played at is 100nl - and I have over 35k hands logged at 50nl and below. I have yet to see someone I rank as solid below 100nl. There are a lot of mutli tablers that know how to play their cards, cbet, and can make decent laydowns, but they're definetly not solid. This is all on Pokerstars.

They also reraise more than JJ+/AK because you're short.

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Solid regulars do not equal nut camping multitablers.

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Then what are they? Excellent one-tablers that fold the nuts? I dont understand your statement. You cant be solid if you nut camp on multiple tables? Why not?

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There are a lot of mutli tablers that know how to play their cards, cbet, and can make decent laydowns, but they're definetly not solid.

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Maybe its that my definition of "solid" needs reworking. What is solid if they cant play their cards, cbet, or make decent laydowns? Isn't that kind of the definition of solid? Or is the key that I'm missing the, "they'll play back at you on the nth level"? I dunno. I dont equate solid with tricky.

Either way, I'm arguing semantics and theres no point to it so it doesn't much matter.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyFish

They also reraise more than JJ+/AK because you're short.

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Yes, but they don't raise junk from the blinds against two players, and they really don't call preflop pushes even from my short stack ass with worse than JJ+/AK.

The biggest weaknesses I see shortstacking:

A) Reraising all-in on the flop will often get called by top pair mid-weak kicker. Rarely less.
B) Ignoring the size of my stack when drawing.
C) Attempting to push me off my hand by firing second bullets on the turn and "pot commiting" themselves with trash. This is a biggy, and is often the reason I see people stacking off against me with second pair. The combination of this and point A means I often delay my real good pushes one street. If I can really really beat them (like I can beat AA), waiting until the turn is often of negligible difference (sometimes they improve, but most often dont improve enough to matter anyway) and it certainly appears that I get called by a wider range (second pair good kicker as opposed to top pair mid kicker whereas often on the flop I believe theyre folding second pair to my push).

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Originally Posted by Ultimate George

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I dont see anyone I beat calling a shove. Their range from the blinds is maaaaybe JJ+/AK and really discounting the AK. And I just dont see any folding equity either.

Now if button had been the reraiser I could see a shove because his range is significantly wider.

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FOLD PREFLOP THEN WHEN HE PUTS IN THE 3-BET IF YOU'RE GOING TO THINK LIKE THIS.

These situations are going to come up if you're shortstacking. You play big pots with big hands. If you ran into QQ/AA here, FUCK IT, it's a half buy-in, move on, next hand sir.

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What would the play be if I was fullstacked? It would have to be along the lines of play for set value because he's repping a rather strong hand. If that is the case, losing half a stack on the flop has to be pure spewage since even if we were full stacked we'd be folding the flop without improving. Since I dont have enough money behind to play for set value, clearly that can't be the correct move.

So we're left with exactly two moves, push or fold preflop. But since we've established that he's got a better hand the majority of times (or we wouldn't play for set value fullstacked, we'd 4bet or push), I believe sans "he's a maniacal moron" read, this -has- to be a fold.

The only factor that I believe would change this analysis is his reraise range from the blinds, and I just don't think I can entertain the idea that he is re-raising two opponents from the blinds with a larger range than I have given him.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

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Solid regulars do not equal nut camping multitablers.

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Then what are they? Excellent one-tablers that fold the nuts? I dont understand your statement. You cant be solid if you nut camp on multiple tables? Why not?

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Basically what I meant was there are a lot of people playing fr and 6max at these levels with stats around 14/5 that play 8+ tables and nutcamp (sets, flushes, overpairs, etc). Someone who I think is solid is putting you in difficult situations pre and post flop. If I am being 3bet it is almost ALWAYS JJ+ (sometimes even QQ+) and AK. For the most part I have not had someone at my table that is doing this - play is extremely abc and straight forward. If one of them is playing back at me it isn't because they're busting a move - it's because they have a strong hand.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

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There are a lot of mutli tablers that know how to play their cards, cbet, and can make decent laydowns, but they're definetly not solid.

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Maybe its that my definition of "solid" needs reworking. What is solid if they cant play their cards, cbet, or make decent laydowns? Isn't that kind of the definition of solid? Or is the key that I'm missing the, "they'll play back at you on the nth level"? I dunno. I dont equate solid with tricky.

Either way, I'm arguing semantics and theres no point to it so it doesn't much matter.

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I agree with you here, my wording was kind of bad (I was trying to nth level you :D). But all in all, I agree with you that micro-stakes really are not what they use to be years ago... a lot of people really have learned to play the game decent enough to make a positive winrate. However, I just don't think there are people at this limit that give me trouble and make me want to switch tables when they're on my left or anything. Poker is +ev when you play people worse than you, and I've never thought of a table as -ev. They play extremely straight forward and knowing that alone can actually be an advantage for you. They

Also fwiw, I really think there is a LOT more money to be won at these levels if you were playing full stacked rather than short stacked. I have never tried shortstacking or anything, but I would much rather be able to win $25 off of villian rather than just $10 - $15. I think you're missing out on a lot of value.

I might be. As you can see on my operation bar posts, my winrate ain't so hot. But I'm running pretty bad.

But I'm making money now, and when I was fullstacking, I wasn't. So thats worth something.

It seems as if you don't understand proper shortstack strategy, and you're being very results oriented. With a full stack you're in a real dillema and can get away from the hand, but here you're short and getting over 2.5-1 with a nice overpair. Don't fold.

Honestly you should not consider everybody at 25nl a retard until they prove you otherwise.

I also would've shoved preflop, but I don't mind calling to shove a safeish flop.

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Originally Posted by aislephive

It seems as if you don't understand proper shortstack strategy, and you're being very results oriented. With a full stack you're in a real dillema and can get away from the hand, but here you're short and getting over 2.5-1 with a nice overpair. Don't fold.

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I think this is an important point. This spot sucks with a full stack since reverse implied odds are so much more important than pot odds here. With a short stack implied odds = pot odds so you cant really fold here for 2.5:1

You really think I'm ahead of his range enough for 2.5:1 to be enough?

I think if you just push preflop (shortstacked) alot of people will call with a range that JJ crushes

Do you mean repop, or open push? Open pushing is an interesting idea.

And it also sets up a fairly laggy image.

Hm. Good thinkin pelion, thanks.