a rare and difficult preflop situation

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12-02-2006, 12:10 AM
wufwugy

a rare and difficult preflop situation

50$ fullring

UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$

Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.

how's Hero's line?

this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.

what you think?
12-02-2006, 02:53 AM
martindcx1e

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

50$ fullring

UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$

Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.

how's Hero's line?

this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.

what you think?

bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to.
12-02-2006, 03:09 AM
givememyleg

I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.
12-02-2006, 03:11 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.

that avatar makes me want to die
12-02-2006, 03:15 AM
wufwugy

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

50$ fullring

UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$

Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.

how's Hero's line?

this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.

what you think?

bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to.

it seems you may have misinterpreted the circumstances.

the read is that about half the time he has a big pair he'll just call a raise. he calls far more often with other stuff.
12-02-2006, 03:19 AM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.

hahahahahahah i love this avatar. partly because some people hate it, partly because some people think it's me, and mainly because it's super hilarious.

and i did call. then ended up eventually folding the best hand. very difficult to play in that situation. far moreso than it seems.
12-02-2006, 03:43 AM
martindcx1e

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

50$ fullring

UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$

Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.

how's Hero's line?

this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.

what you think?

bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to.

it seems you may have misinterpreted the circumstances.

the read is that about half the time he has a big pair he'll just call a raise. he calls far more often with other stuff.

i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.
12-02-2006, 03:58 AM
wufwugy

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.

nearly everybody at my tables play big pairs like such.

and let's say approximately 15% of the time MP has a bigger pair in this situation and will call an all in, and 15% of the time MP has a worse hand and will call an all in, and the rest of the time he folds. you think that i should just call and enter into a terrible postflop situation?

dont underestimate how bad the postflop situation is. that's actually why i posted this hand. because i feel playing this hand postflop is so bad that making a move that looks wrong (pushing all in) is actually right.
12-02-2006, 05:45 AM
Miffed22001

3 bet fold to a push. If he slow plays big pairs preflop then change
your preflop range so that he has to start 3betting big pairs to
kill your implied odds if you open with a non-standard range
and standard small pairs etc.
12-02-2006, 12:30 PM
martindcx1e

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.

nearly everybody at my tables play big pairs like such.
I'm sorry but I seriously doubt this. Make sure you're not exaggerating to support your play.

and let's say approximately 15% of the time MP has a bigger pair in this situation and will call an all in, and 15% of the time MP has a worse hand and will call an all in, and the rest of the time he folds. you think that i should just call and enter into a terrible postflop situation?
It's a little tough to just assign a percentage to it, but I think it just boils down to you taking down a small pot most times and losing a huge pot the rest of the time.
12-02-2006, 01:56 PM
nutsinho

lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded
12-02-2006, 03:29 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded

only some of it has to do with him bluffing.

because the pot is bloated, his hand is undefined, one player is all in, and i have a good but not great hand when unimproved, im most likely gonna hafta put in my entire stack if i want to see showdown.

on the flop i will probably have around 2/5ths of my stack in, and the pot will be bigger than my remaining stack. i can very easily put in half my stack and lose or put in my entire stack and pay off a worse hand that hit.
12-02-2006, 03:41 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3 bet fold to a push.

if i raise small he'll almost always call and we'll be playing for stacks even more often. if i raise big and he calls i dont see how my entire stack wont go in. if i raise big and he pushes then i may be getting 4:1 and will call (he may also push with AK or something).

Quote:

If he slow plays big pairs preflop then change
your preflop range so that he has to start 3betting big pairs to
kill your implied odds if you open with a non-standard range
and standard small pairs etc.

he has a large range of hands he'll coldcall with, is almost always transparent on the flop with a slowplayed big pair, and wont change much how he plays based on how i play.
12-02-2006, 03:55 PM
wufwugy

Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

I'm sorry but I seriously doubt this. Make sure you're not exaggerating to support your play.

many of my opponents hate not getting action on their big pairs preflop, and love getting all in post flop and trapping.

Quote:

It's a little tough to just assign a percentage to it, but I think it just boils down to you taking down a small pot most times and losing a huge pot the rest of the time.

yea any percentage i assign is wrong anyways.

and i would agree if postflop play was much more cut and dry and cheaper in this situation.
12-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Warpe

worst avatar ever
12-02-2006, 04:06 PM
wufwugy

hahah just changed it

ill have that one and an even better one back sometime later

and anybody who doesn't like it doesn't have a sense of humor.
12-02-2006, 04:25 PM
martindcx1e

best avatar ever
12-02-2006, 09:39 PM
nutsinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded

only some of it has to do with him bluffing.

because the pot is bloated, his hand is undefined, one player is all in, and i have a good but not great hand when unimproved, im most likely gonna hafta put in my entire stack if i want to see showdown.

on the flop i will probably have around 2/5ths of my stack in, and the pot will be bigger than my remaining stack. i can very easily put in half my stack and lose or put in my entire stack and pay off a worse hand that hit.

umm if by 2/5 of your stack you meant 3/25 then yeah...

this hand isnt hard to play. call the reraise, assuming he calls and u miss your set, lead flops where you're likely good and fold to resistance. not a tough hand at all.
12-03-2006, 03:08 AM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

umm if by 2/5 of your stack you meant 3/25 then yeah...

beginning of hand my stack is 50$. if i and MP call then heading to the flop the pot is 18$ and my stack is 44$. on the large majority of flops i am going to lead out. it's debatable what is the correct amount, but potting it puts my stack at 26$ and the pot 36$. if i half pot it then my stack is 35$ and the pot is 27$

nothing like 3/25. and not leading near the pot size is incorrect, imo.

Quote:

this hand isnt hard to play. call the reraise, assuming he calls and u miss your set, lead flops where you're likely good and fold to resistance. not a tough hand at all.

what this amounts to is me either 1) putting my entire stack in by showdown or 2) hoping that he checks behind when i check on whatever streets i must check on to avoid putting my stack in.

also, i played it exactly how you propose and ended up folding the best hand to his semi bluff on the turn.

flop is J53 two flush, you 3/4 pot it, he calls, turn is 8 non-flush, whaddaya do? if you check and he pushes all in giving you approximately 2:1? your read is that he'll play drawing, marginal made, and excellent hands passively against your bets, yet play them aggressively when you show weakness. you dont know his bluffing capabilities.
12-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Carl Clownshoes

Let's see what our Lord and Saviour has to say...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...nshoes/OML.jpg
12-14-2006, 07:00 PM
givememyleg

Carl Clownshoes... now that's a unique one.