Getting a friend started

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12-04-2006, 02:16 AM
Duckslayer2k

Getting a friend started

Main question is: Start out my friend on small stakes SNGs or Cash games?

I have been playing poker for a while now, and one of my friends is beginning to play online as well. I am trying to figure out the best games for him to play while he is learning. He has read Phil Gordon's little green book and is reading HOH1 right now.

I started out playing SNGs on PS.. the 5 buck, then 10, then 20, then 50. I switched to cash about 4 months ago and finally am doing OK in that. My friend started playing .05/.10 cash games (10NL). Smaller stakes below that were just not realistic enough. He did OK, break even or a little bit worse, is down about 80 bucks or so and has ran into a few tough hands.

Are SNGs a lot easier for beginners to learn just because of the reduced post flop decisions in the later stages? I think I may have made a mistake by throwing him into cash games right away, as it was fairly difficult even for me to adjust and start winning.

Thank you in advance for all suggestions.
12-04-2006, 02:53 AM
martindcx1e

cash games. it's much easier to make the transition from cash to tourney than tourney to cash. i think PS 10nl is a fine place to start.
12-04-2006, 04:36 AM
Da GOAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

it's much easier to make the transition from cash to tourney than tourney to cash.

finding this very true
12-04-2006, 05:40 AM
badape

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

cash games. it's much easier to make the transition from cash to tourney than tourney to cash. i think PS 10nl is a fine place to start.

Try to hit a few home games if you can as well, if your playing with friends they'll usually tell you how they play and you can learn alot more by paying a very small price(usually home games are 10~20 bucks buyin). If your going to a casino/online site and try to learn the game the players are never going to tell you how they play and your just sitting there throwing your money away. The book helps to a certain extent and after that its all about experience.
12-04-2006, 06:30 AM
sejje

Quote:

Originally Posted by badape

Try to hit a few home games if you can as well, if your playing with friends they'll usually tell you how they play

ech. I've never played in a home game with even two solid players, players I would gain any useful knowledge from listening to them talk.

Get the guy on the forum, that's where he'll learn valuable information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by badape

you can learn alot more by paying a very small price(usually home games are 10~20 bucks buyin).

Yeah, but almost every home game nowadays is a tourney. Not learning the cash game, and probably not getting to play for very long. Also, 20 bucks is 2 buyins for his limit, and he'd get a lot of play online out of those, most likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by badape

If your going to a casino/online site and try to learn the game the players are never going to tell you how they play and your just sitting there throwing your money away. The book helps to a certain extent and after that its all about experience.

These two statements contradict each other. It's about learning, or it's about experience? I personally think he's not 'throwing away his money.' He's probably slightly above average at 10NL already. It absolutely is about experience, and he needs to get it at the table.
12-04-2006, 07:46 AM
mrhappy333

keep your friend out of the community forum, but I like the 10NL on poker stars..05/.10
then post HHs from each session, that help out big time, And play his draws aggressively.
12-04-2006, 07:51 AM
Pelion

everyone who plays cash will say cash.

everyone who plays tournaments will say SnGs.

I vote cash.
12-04-2006, 08:53 AM
Miffed22001

cash games.
And DO NOT LET HIM PLAY SMALL STAKES GAMES ON STARS.

Then he'll have no problems making a bankroll with in a few months.
12-04-2006, 08:54 AM
givememyleg

Sngs are a lot easier to learn therefore I recommend starting people out there. There is the trouble though making the transition from sngs to cash as was brought up, however any solid player should be able to make it. Sngs teach a very important part of poker, which is mainly focused on preflop. Once you learn how to play before the flop, switching to ring expands how you think and you learn to read/put people on hands.

I just think it's easier to give my friend $100, show them how to load a tournament, and teach them to fold fold fold pound pound fold fold push push, rather than to flop sets and spot big hands.
12-04-2006, 11:46 AM
Rondavu

Start him out playing SnG's. If he plays cash right away he'll get smoked. Just the way it works. At least if he gets stacked in a SnG, he didn't lose a big chunk of his roll.

He has to be able to get used to the mental underside of poker before playing cash, ie tilt, running bad, playing bad, tired, mad etc.
12-04-2006, 11:46 AM
Da GOAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Sngs are a lot easier to learn therefore I recommend starting people out there. There is the trouble though making the transition from sngs to cash as was brought up, however any solid player should be able to make it. Sngs teach a very important part of poker, which is mainly focused on preflop. Once you learn how to play before the flop, switching to ring expands how you think and you learn to read/put people on hands.

true!! but every answer is bias.

i liked the action of SNG when i started, cash was to slow and boring.
12-04-2006, 11:56 AM
pgil

def start him out playing SnG's. They allow you to have a complete meltdown/horrible play and still have something to show for your 45 mins of solid play. And since newer players will be doing this more, it is a nice way to start out. It also lessens the frustration of the bad beats if you've already made the payouts when it happens because at least you won a little bit.

Plus you get to see way more hands for a smaller, and fixed, amount of money. granted you don't get to do as much with those hands, but at least you get to see them played.
12-04-2006, 12:02 PM
swiggidy

I think SnG because of the BR issue

If he isn't a proven winner he needs >$200 to play 10NL, but $100 will over-roll him for the $1. It's also easy to build the roll there.

Mistakes at 10NL, -$10. Mistakes at $1 SnG, -$1.
12-04-2006, 12:05 PM
martindcx1e

maybe have him watch you play cash games for a few sessions while explaining what you are doing and why? unless, of course, you suck at cash games...
12-04-2006, 01:43 PM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Start him out playing SnG's. If he plays cash right away he'll get smoked. Just the way it works. At least if he gets stacked in a SnG, he didn't lose a big chunk of his roll.

He has to be able to get used to the mental underside of poker before playing cash, ie tilt, running bad, playing bad, tired, mad etc.
12-04-2006, 02:35 PM
Duckslayer2k

wow, thanks for all of the suggestions. I have wired him $100 to his account and plan on having him finish reading HOH1. Then he will play $5 SNG on stars... he actually already snuck a game in last night ($5 SNG) because he said he couldn't wait, and he got 2nd place. Lost HU straight to a flush. lol.

I know this is only 20 buy ins and probably not enough of a roll. However, I think he should have minimal losses after reading that book and I can always reload him if necessary.

As far as him watching me play cash games, we have done that a few times. There are just so many different situations that arise in cash games that I'm not sure if what I explain sinks in. I know that if I was in his shoes, it would be tough for me to remember all of the things I'm telling him while he's watching me play cash.

Martin, I don't think I suck at cash games...

Miffed, why do you say don't have him play small stakes on Stars? Does this include 10NL cash Full ring? You suggest that he play cash games but don't offer suggestions other than what he's been playing. Do you mean choose a different site or higher stakes or what?
12-04-2006, 03:42 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckslayer2k

wow, thanks for all of the suggestions. I have wired him $100 to his account and plan on having him finish reading HOH1. Then he will play $5 SNG on stars... he actually already snuck a game in last night ($5 SNG) because he said he couldn't wait, and he got 2nd place. Lost HU straight to a flush. lol.

I know this is only 20 buy ins and probably not enough of a roll. However, I think he should have minimal losses after reading that book and I can always reload him if necessary.

As far as him watching me play cash games, we have done that a few times. There are just so many different situations that arise in cash games that I'm not sure if what I explain sinks in. I know that if I was in his shoes, it would be tough for me to remember all of the things I'm telling him while he's watching me play cash.

Martin, I don't think I suck at cash games...

Miffed, why do you say don't have him play small stakes on Stars? Does this include 10NL cash Full ring? You suggest that he play cash games but don't offer suggestions other than what he's been playing. Do you mean choose a different site or higher stakes or what?

I wasn't saying you suck at cash games.
If he's going to play cash games have him play over at Bodog.
12-04-2006, 04:15 PM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckslayer2k

Miffed, why do you say don't have him play small stakes on Stars? Does this include 10NL cash Full ring? You suggest that he play cash games but don't offer suggestions other than what he's been playing. Do you mean choose a different site or higher stakes or what?

miff hates low stakes at stars because its too "rocky". I started at 5NL at stars and then moved up to 10NL and found it beatable. There are definatly easier sites out there to play 25 and 50 NL (or at least there were before the US ban) but IMO stars is a good place to start since you dont waste any bonuses by making a small deposit.
12-08-2006, 09:52 PM
Chopper

if i were giving advice on what game to start, and where to start...

read a book or two (not a bunch, only for the fundamentals). watch some TV, and critique their pre-flop play, or just listen...PPT, or high-stakes poker, or celebrity showdown. all the while, play some FREE money games (to get a feel...practice building a "sense" for hands for free first), but again...not for long...couple weeks.

then, play some lower-stakes cash games. 10 NL would be fine. play some $1 SNG's. this is to "gain experience" ONLY.

then, READ, READ, READ...POST, POST, POST the forums. ALL OF THEM...like you're obsessed.

real experience, along with fundamentals, then add analysis of your hands in question, and your friend should gain a TON of experience in a short period of time...30 days max.

now teach bankroll management (buy-ins, levels, etc), and teach about some bonuses (sign-ups and RELOADS). ALWAYS play for a bonus/rakeback, if possible nowadays.

the rest should take care of itself...before long you and he will be having some great discussions about specific situations.

i may get flamed for this, but my track record (while not the best):

after some free money play and SSHE, I started with a borrowed $25 on the $10 NL, full-ring games at Stars. built it to $200 and started looking for a bonus (cant remember where i went first). starting chasing every sign-up i could max out, and, after 2 sites was at party (b4 US ban). long story short...in 13 months (started last Nov '05), i sit at a bankroll of just under 3k (with no withdrawals).

i know that's not the greatest performance because i dont play over 100 NL (i can be a nit when it comes to BR mngmt), but i feel your friend (and most beginners) would be pleased with those results in 13 months. for you "techies," i have a 4.46 BB/100 win rate over 75k hands. sorry if this sounds bragadocious, but it was solely meant to "back up" my method.