KK, Why are there so many callers?

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12-06-2006, 01:58 PM
takesix

KK, Why are there so many callers?

First: Flop re-raise enough?
Second: Should I just shove the flop? A $10 bet commits me anyway (or is this a leak?), and any single caller gives massive odds to the people behind.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($25.80)
SB ($10.25)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($11.75)
MP1 ($33.70)
MP2 ($14.20)
CO ($66.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
UTG raises to $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.75, 1 fold, Button calls $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, UTG calls $2.75, UTG+1 calls $2.75, MP2 calls $2.75, Button calls $2.75.

Flop: ($17.60) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero ???
12-06-2006, 02:06 PM
zook

I re-raise a little more to $4 or $4.50, but $3.5o isn't bad. Push flop.
12-06-2006, 02:30 PM
seoul_child1

not to be too harsh, but with 4 pre-flop callers of a min.-raise $.75 i re-raise to some insane amt., to really limit the field and also to protect ur hand. $3.50 is too little for this situation... a re-raise to $7-$8 would've been much more appropriate! the reason i say raise so much higher is because i tend to find these donks will call a decent re-raise like ($3.50) if majority of the other players decide to call, so with a hefty raise u really put them to the test and from there u can make better judgement calls!!
12-06-2006, 05:15 PM
nutsinho

4.50 pre, shove flop as played
12-06-2006, 05:28 PM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by seoul_child1

a re-raise to $7-$8 would've been much more appropriate! the reason i say raise so much higher is because i want to blow everyone out of the pot and avoid judgement calls!!

FYP

$3.50 is a shade short. $4.50 would give the first player 2:1 odds.
12-06-2006, 05:59 PM
Warpe

I make it $5 preflop 'cause I like to save keystrokes. Easy shove on flop.
12-06-2006, 06:34 PM
AHiltz

Quote:

a re-raise to $7-$8 would've been much LESS appropriate!

Fixed

So, you're telling me that you're putting in ~1/3 a buying against a 3x raiser with 2 calls? Been a while since I played 25NL, but there are VERY few people that I saw that would be stunned enough to call that large of a raise without just shoving, and they wouldn't do that without AA/KK.
12-07-2006, 09:55 AM
kingnat

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHiltz

Been a while since I played 25NL, but there are VERY few people that I saw that would be stunned enough to call that large of a raise without just shoving, and they wouldn't do that without AA/KK.

It's been too long since you played 25NL..... add, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs, maybe AJ,TT... and hell likely a whole ton more too sc's, picture cards... et al
12-07-2006, 10:17 AM
LeFou

Re: KK, Why are there so many callers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by takesix

Why are there so many callers?

One for each Ace! Shove time!
12-07-2006, 10:19 AM
seoul_child1

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHiltz

Quote:

a re-raise to $7-$8 would've been much LESS appropriate!

Fixed

So, you're telling me that you're putting in ~1/3 a buying against a 3x raiser with 2 calls? Been a while since I played 25NL, but there are VERY few people that I saw that would be stunned enough to call that large of a raise without just shoving, and they wouldn't do that without AA/KK.

You would be extremely surprised to see who would call that huge re-raise of $7-8 like i stated b4 and with what, also there was 4 callers prior to him, of that 3x raise!!! I don't know about you but KK against 4 people is -EV. I have been messing around building up a micro-roll in (25NL) and have had much experience running into morons that call these type of raises with utter junk, just to get involved in a Big Pot!!
12-07-2006, 11:00 AM
biondino

You'd really shove this flop? This is something I don't get at all. Isn't it likely that at least some of the other players have low/mid PPs? KK is pretty good here but there's a good chance you're drawing to 2 outs but you won't actually KNOW this until it's too late because you're OOP.
12-07-2006, 11:17 AM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by seoul_child1

I don't know about you but KK against 4 people is has the second most EV of any hand.

FYP. Don't blow people out of the pot pre-flop with premium hands. Give them incorrect odds to call and be happy when they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

You'd really shove this flop? This is something I don't get at all. Isn't it likely that at least some of the other players have low/mid PPs? KK is pretty good here but there's a good chance you're drawing to 2 outs but you won't actually KNOW this until it's too late because you're OOP

You can't be scared of a set here because that's the least likely scenario and it's going to be impossible to distinguish one from QQ-TT anyway. I like a shove because with the size of the pot and the remaining stacks, it's likely to get at least one or two calls and it sets the worst price for a draw.
12-07-2006, 11:23 AM
LeFou

Yeah, If we think 2 opps have pp in the range 22-99, each of them has a 37% of having a set here...

But I think you have to bet at least $10 and I can't see you folding however the action comes back. I feel like a shove has a better chance of getting a dumb call from TT-QQ, or even weaker hands trying to pick off a bluff.

..
12-07-2006, 11:47 AM
takesix

For the results oriented: Did shove, 1 caller, had TT, turn/river bricks so i scoop :D
12-07-2006, 12:20 PM
ShowMeAtlas

A lot of post fixing going on here :D
12-07-2006, 12:39 PM
seoul_child1

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShowMeAtlas

A lot of post fixing going on here :D

lol :) ... i felt like arguing but it wasn't worth it.. Takesix: glad the best of scenarios worked out for u in ur favor!!!
12-07-2006, 12:47 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by seoul_child1

KK against 4 people is -EV.

no it's not
12-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Miffed22001

does anybody shove preflop at these stakes?
12-07-2006, 02:00 PM
takesix

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

does anybody shove preflop at these stakes?

I've seen little reason to do so since I moved back up. Only two reasons for this:

1) Obv, there could be a mega donk who who call his 77 or whatever. But there are rather few of these.
2) Less likely, though possible, is 1-3 mega donks who are driving the whole table batty with their stupidity and (likely) suckouts. So, the whole table, smelling blood, starts making -EV plays, rationalizing it by saying "well, AQo is ahead of their range", and other players notice less than solid plays so THEY want to get in on the dead money, and yeah, only in that scenario would I just shove preflop.