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I've cut down significantly on my tables, and I've been trying to get better. I have started threebetting regulars in position a lot more, with some success. I still just can't seem to get anything going.
I have played a lot of poker in the past few days. This sample of hands occurred in three long sessions of 4 tabling.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4843/1sw5.png
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2322/2rk0.png
I'm at 15% PFR and a lot of very successful players raise less than me pre-flop. Although when I was at 12% I tried to tighten up and even removed some spots from my openers...
You seem to coldcall on the button significantly more than you do from 1 and 2 off. I'd look at that.
You also go to showdown significantly less than you do 1 and 2 off,wheras youd expect to go more (which isnt the cause of the problem, but an effect).
Too much coldcalling with 67s and the like, and then folding the flop?
Your river AF is interesting.
are you practicing table/seat selection?
Renton,
Your preflop stats look pretty solid, although your PFraise number is a bit higher than mine (probably me not 3-betting enough preflop).
Your river aggression is high (at least compared to mine), be carefull you are not making to many thin -EV value bets on the river and/or hopeless bluffs.
Your leaks are (as you probably know already) probably postflop - from what I remember about your posted hands it seems like you are a bit overaggro postflop and that you stack off a bit too often with marginal holdings.
Cold calling 67s with the intent of hitting a flop is a leak in online 100ish deep NLHE IMHO. I've stopped doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
If I call you with suited crap, I had every intention of raising or floating a lot of flops in that hand.
preflop, you have your 'standard' tagg stats. Many players have similar numbers preflop. There is a huge (and I mean huge) discrepancy in post-flop skill among these players.
I'm not saying that you're a bad post-flop player as I've never played with you (100 hands or whatever doesn't count). I just figured I would say what nobody else will say.
I'd agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
fwiw, My impression of renton in my very limited play with him was the exact opposite. That he wasn't nearly aggressive enough, but I've long gathered from his forum posts that he makes too many heroic calldowns and therefore stacked off a bit too often with marginal holdings, but that's not being aggressive. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Try not playing with regulars if at all possible. At which site do you play?
From the feel I get from your hand histories you're calling too many bets with marginal holding on the turn and river, overthinking a player is bluffing when he is not.
But I haven't reviewed your HH's so I'm probably wrong.
Your EP stats seem fine, but you really need to open up more in LP. I think you need to work more on opening up your game in generally and I dont really mean your numbers. Exploit position more, play a wider range of hands OTB, float more, etc.
Interesting. I'm guessing KQo has more value here than 67s HU? At which point does calling 67s become profitable, when there are 2 or more in before you or 150+ BB stacks? Thats been something I'm doing with 67s but with KQo I'm more likely to call HU in position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Well in my 1500+ hands with you I've seen a few things.
1. You don't seem to have real good pot control. A lot of the hands I see you in are usually large, therefore I think you are losing a lot of bloated pots with marginal hands.
2. I've seen you call a lot when someone reraises you preflop, I've also seen you post a few of these hands. I think your logic behind calling is solid, I just don't think its applicable at $100 nl unless its against a regular.
3. You also seem to play the same no matter who your opponent is in any particular hand. A product of too many tables?? You seem to be more reactionary instead of being proactive. This also might make it difficult for you to manipulate your opponents.
Well as my most recent experiment I have been calling raises with SC 54s+ from ALL as well as raising them UTG --> Btn. They are currently my biggest winners as a whole even more than PP. This has also helped me with my postflop play and has opened up my action on all big hands.
am I stupid for thinking this type of thread is somewhat pointless?
I say that having posted the same type of thing myself fwiw.
Beating any limit is rarely about finding formulas that work. It's about beating ppl. It has been more profitable for me to find one player who will overreact to getting bullied than to spend hours poring over preflop and positional stats.
Since this thread seems to be indirectly about "how can I improve my game" see if you can speed up your ability to get very precise reads about how other players at the table are feeling.
Maybe forget about importing hands for a few sessions and just play each situation according to the feeling of the situation rather than the way it fits into some all-encompassing 3-street strategy against a "regular". See what happens when you open-raise every hand from CO and Btn when folded to you. See how you can adapt to ppl adapting to you...
I know you're an active experimentor Renton so you've prob done all this stuff a ton. But it seems to me that this is the essense of exploring your game and improving and it's a mistake to never come back to the kind of naive, "how does this situation work" approach. That is where most significant progress is made (for me at least).
If I were you I'd pitch the notion of ever playing a hand in a vaccum. Don't just sit at a table. Watch a few orbits before sitting down. Fuck your stats for a few weeks. What you described at the top of the OP sounded good fwiw.
For real? I'm really interested in comments about this. I'm pretty sure calling OOP to a raise in the BB and SB without 2+ callers to the raise already is most of the time -EV. Also, I've stopped raising them UTG and MP. Does anyone recommend I stop this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
I only just started 100NL, but at 50NL when I stopped raising these hands UTG and MP (in addition to some other tightening up) I started killing the game instead of beating it. The difference is I was loosing fewer ~30bb pots, without a negative affect on the number of big pots I won.Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Calling raises OOP w/SCs as a matter of standard practice has to be a huge leak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
I also think this advice would apply to your game Renton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
I noticed with a lot of your hands you are focussed on what you're repping in bluffs etc. But you never really give analysis on what you put your opponent on and if he is the kind of guy to fold here and such.
Player reads will help you greatly. In not only losing less money but in winning more.
Something that has helped me recently is I put an opponent on a hand and then figure who he is and how much trouble he would have folding it. ie I put a guy on a straight when I just made my flush. When I would normally value bet $30 I know this guy is not capable of folding a straight so instead I push and make say $100 when I only would have made $30 before because in the past I would have used to pot math to decide how much I should bet.
I started calling the SC's to get better at post flop play and hand reading when I have a marginal holding. The reason I did this was to se how a loose player feels when he flops middle pair or top pair on a 7xx board or hits two pair on a Txx board etc. If you don't know how the fish play how do you expect to beat them?
I thought it would be a leak by calling them out of the blinds, but I haven't really felt it. In a game where there are 2-3 regulars at every table, it is much harder now to put me on a hand. For the guy who has AK on a A65 flop, the regulars are starting to wonder if I really have 65s or 78s. I allows me to raise the flop that much more or float when I'm in position. The Tags just won't give you action on your sets, I am looking for a way around this the more times I show them a missed draw or a weaker than usual holding after they raised the more I can expect 2nd barrels on my sets.
This is an interesting dilemma. according to "canon" (NLT&P, SS2) these are huge bread and butter hands because of their ability to hit a big hand and get paid off. Should we only play them in position? Or only against weak/tight raises? I think they also play much better full ring rather than 6max, but that may be a function of the player pool (less aggression).Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
What DO people play from the blinds vs a single raiser? Wait - I'll guess - you should play with a hand that is better (on average) than raiser's range; Re-raising the top end of this, and the occasional random bluff. No matter how good you are post flop, it's unlikely to counter positional disadvantage. Implied odds are generally meh since you are OOP.
Does anyone actualy play like that? I know I play way too loose...
I just think it should be a 'sometimes do' as opposed to an 'always do', based on the table conditions and how much you want to dance with Shania on any given day - 25% of the time maybe.
I think this should be shovelled off to a seperate thread...
Observed player behavior and results > Cannon.
1. You call too many raises/re-raises PF.
2. The pots you play are generally disproportinately large compared to the strength of your hand (ie. your pot control sucks).
3. You bluff people that won't fold.
4. You call people that aren't bluffing.
5. You seem to act with disregard to how your play will affect the action on later streets.
duh, but WHY?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Um...I haven't played since early October but a couple people mentioned pot control. At one point over the summer, I realized that when I played tight I felt obligated to get aggro in any hand I entered. I played less pots but most of them were mid-large pots. If I led the hand, by the river I was pretty much pot committed and so was my opponent. This was at 100NL SH and my bb/100 was low. I then loosened up preflop but practiced more selective aggression post flop. My bb/100 started climbing as I got better at pot control. I also got a better feel for my opponents by being in more pots with them but letting them make more decisions - rather than pushing the action every time and letting them sit back and cold call me.
That's just my experience before taking a break. I plan to start again in 2007 and I've been thinking over some things. Pot control and playing based on each individual opponent are things that can make a big difference. These are things most players at 100NL/200NL need to work out before moving up. Sure, you can get away with playing like a bot (not saying you do) at 100NL and profit, but my goal was to work on those factors and others while the stakes weren't too high. I know your goal is to improve as a player as well. Just take a little more time on each decision and as DaNuts says - think about how your action now will affect later play.
you call too much
you dont fold enough
you dont understand how your table image affects how people play against you i.e they dont raise you without the goods, they dont call a lot of your lines without hands that are too strong to fold.
You bluff in places where you would never actually have the hand you are representing.
you dont check enough.
this was a good post, ty for writing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
I think you've stopped listening to the table. I've been there...hell I'm there now. You shout pre-flop and people respond with silence. So you shout again post-flop and they again respond with silence...that is until they think they can talk over you...then they yell.
People know that when you're in a pot there will be a lot of shouting, so they don't get into a pot with you unless they feel like they can yell back. In short, you only get called/raised when you're beat and pick up small pots when you're ahead. It's because you're very aggressive and probably undervalue your competition.
Just because player 1 is a fish doesn't mean he didn't flop 2-pair or didn't turn that set. TPTK is not as good as it used to be at 10Nl & 25Nl. Small hands, small pots. Big hands...AI. :lol:
Jadakiss says - "Fa99ot's respect pressure" so do fish. They don't want to get raised out of every pot. In essence your style makes the bad players play better against you instead of making them make mistakes. They know you aren't folding once committed, so they don't commit unless they want you to call. I say this because it's happened to me. With me it was a combination of over-confidence, hyper-aggression, and just plain not listening to the board and the other players in a pot. Yes, they shouldn't be beating me here, but are they? You start to think everyone is just playing back at you because you exert so much pressure and aggression that they are tired of getting pushed around. What I've noticed is that in the 50NL-100Nl range they just tighten up and trap you with their monsters. Remember, some of these guys actually worked their way up, and have a clue...even if it's just a small one. They all didn't sit down to donate to you.
Stop shouting and Listen! Oh and re-read your own guide, it helps. :D