Hand with Jager

BB is a multi-tabler. Seems a reasonable enough sort.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($117.50)
CO ($97.50)
Fnord ($102.30)
SB (Jager) ($99)
BB ($297.25)
UTG ($29)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
3 folds, Fnord raises to $4, SB (Jager) calls $3.50, BB raises to $16, Fnord calls $12, SB (Jager) calls $12.

Flop: ($48) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Jager checks, BB bets $30, Fnord folds, Jager folds.

Thought about this hand (pre-flop) afterwards. I think TT+ is a call here. Unsure about AK, probably gamb00l with AKs, 99-66 is close and 55 and under is a pretty easy fold. Fold everything else.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($117.50)
CO ($97.50)
Fnord ($102.30)
Jager ($99)
BB ($297.25)
UTG ($29)

Preflop: Jager is SB with 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
3 folds, Button raises to $4, Jager calls $3.50, BB raises to $16, Fnord calls $12, Jager calls $12.

Flop: ($48) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Jager checks, BB bets $30, Fnord folds, Jager folds.

Final Pot: $78

So your are saying that I should have folded this preflop? I have been doing well calling this when I am capping the preflop action, I have a great shot at gettng at least a stack if I hit.

i think jager's preflop smoothcall is probably negative EV vs you, unless he plans on checkraising a fair few missed flops.

i dont fault folding the flop, but it's really tough to tell if it was the right decision.
This just doesn't make any sense for KK, or AA to play it this way.

This could be a block lead with a hand like 99, TT, or QQ. But then again his bet sizing would make you think differently.

This really doesn't make too much for a reg besides a set, but im really surprised with a pot this deep he wouldn't c/r.

So idk. I probably fold too.

I really dont like folding this flop at all, especially against a regular who is decent. PF I probably shove AKx nearly always along with KK+ [obviously] and AXs a decent amount of the time and call with something like 88/99+ and SCs on occassion. On the flop why are we folding? I guess I really just dont get it. Jager's hand is pretty face up and the BB's range really isnt _that_ tight, he could easily be squeezing here, shouldnt that be part of the decision? If we are folding a flop like this, then we shouldnt be calling PF because we dont have odds for a set. I think this is a pretty easy call on the flop and slowing down a bit on the turn hoping to get to the showdown cheaply. The rest really depends on your reads of how your opponent plays in 3bet pots, but I cant help but think the flop is a standard call against what could easily be a squeeze which will almost always be followed up with a cbet.

Edit: Even if we arent putting the BB on a squeeze, couldnt he still easily have a range of KQx+ [even KJx]?

Have you been button raising alot? BB may just be playing back.

That flop is pretty much ideal for JJ. That said, If you call, you have to call a push on the turn as long as it isn't an over...3:1 when you could possibly have the best hand is too good to fold. You could push here but the only thing calling you is beating you. You could fold but I just think that's too weak, we have a decent hand here and ideally we want to see a showdown without playing for stacks.

So with the obvious stated...calling is the best option. If an over hits on the turn we can let it go and move on. We disguise our hand and give ourselves odds to call a spewey bluff push by villain if he decides to push a blank turn with AK/AQish. We have position so we can check behind on a blank turn if checked to or push if we think villain was making a play. And we still could possibly have the best hand as lots of hands re-pop the button from the blinds here and lead this non-threatening flop yet check down if they fail to shake us lose.

I don't think we ever fold here unless we know villain's 3-bet range is QQ+.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

BB is a multi-tabler. Seems a reasonable enough sort.

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I fold this all day. He reraises 4x pre out of the BB and then bets 2/3 of a big pot into two callers...? Phffft. This is AA/KK a vast majority of the time on Stars.

In my experience, multitablers usually lean towards tighter in the three-betting range than looser, unless you've seen otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jager

I have a great shot at gettng at least a stack if I hit.

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It's pretty obvious that given the action you have the smallest pocket pair of the 3 of us. Still like calling?

i like how everyone played

To those who don't even consider a fold here,

Yeah, sometimes I continue. This like many other NLHE decisions comes down to a judgement call and I thought this guy probably had the goods. Sometimes I probably fold to a hyper-aggro AK or TT. With the current stack sizes he sized his bet very well. With less than pot behind if I call that bet, I think anything less than a push is a pretty big mistake unless we can rule out a hand like AK/AQ.

this gane doesnt have enough players squeezing without the goods. Jagers call is ugh, fnords call is marginal IMO if you think we'll get paid when getting lucky.
fwiw, reraising here might be sexy/spewy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

this gane doesnt have enough players squeezing without the goods. Jagers call is ugh, fnords call is marginal IMO if you think we'll get paid when getting lucky.
fwiw, reraising here might be sexy/spewy?

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Jeez reraising here would be suicidal, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jager

I have a great shot at gettng at least a stack if I hit.

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It's pretty obvious that given the action you have the smallest pocket pair of the 3 of us. Still like calling?

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Absolutely, again I am not risking getting pushed preflop, and I am calling ~16% of my stack to almost gaurantee a stack if I get my set. Lets see if I apply your 10x rule then I need to get $120, so your $16 + $100 from BB is $116. And since

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

You probably can subtract a little for each additional caller, but not quite 1x because of the additional chance of a better 3 of a kind, flush or straight

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.
Then I only need a little less than $120 to be getting the proper odds to call.

...if you believe 10x is sufficient, which many don't.

Last I heard the 10x rule isn't the cool thing anymore.

the 10x rule is awesome, i dont fold anything that fits under the 10x rule unless its complete trash (a8o, K9o, etc).

ignoring the 10x rule (when talking about for set value) being extremely flawed and bad, we're obviously not calling here against your typical opponent ONLY for set value. Give me a break (this holds true even if we are folding x% of the time on such a dry flop).

As far as the hand, hard to say honestly. Depending on what I think of BB's range and playing ability here, I might 4-bet pre a certain amount of the time. As played, I think it's a good fold on the flop against a lot of opponents that aren't going to have AND fire with air here a lot.

Why 4-bet here pre-flop? I would only 4-bet as an exploitive line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Why 4-bet here pre-flop? I would only 4-bet as an exploitive line.

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Get called by worse hands, fold out 'better' hands. By 'better' hands I mean hands that aren't ahead of JJ preflop, but played with initiative have a higher expectation going to the flop if I call as opposed to 4-betting. I probably did a piss-poor job of explaining to that, but say the BB has AQs. (I think) it is far better to 4-bet and fold it out pre or 4-bet and get it all-in pre as opposed to calling and seeing a flop. Others will probably disagree.

Also, I would never 4-bet against your typical nit that is only squeezing with huge hands here, but it's an option when the game starts opening up a bit. If a good reg was in the BB here, I would expect him to insta-call a shove with QQ+/AK, a worse pair sometimes, and on occasion a worse ace, particularly AQs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jager

So your are saying that I should have folded this preflop?

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Your hand is absurdly well-defined. I can't speak for the other guy, but I put you square on 99-22 leaning towards the lower end after the pre-flop action.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jager

So your are saying that I should have folded this preflop?

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Your hand is absurdly well-defined. I can't speak for the other guy, but I put you square on 99-22 leaning towards the lower end after the pre-flop action.

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I agree that the second time around it's definitely a fold. First call is probably -EV too.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I agree that the second time around it's definitely a fold. First call is probably -EV too.

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lol what

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I agree that the second time around it's definitely a fold. First call is probably -EV too.

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So you are saying its -ev to play, therfore I should fold all small PP's?

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Originally Posted by Jager

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

I agree that the second time around it's definitely a fold. First call is probably -EV too.

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So you are saying its -ev to play, therfore I should fold all small PP's?

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I think calling a 4x button open from a good player with a baby pair in the SB is a leak with 100bb stacks. I'd still call sometimes for balance, but in isolation, 3-betting > folding > calling, IMO.

btw, when I say that I think 3-betting is the best play there, it takes into account how many hands I think fnord is raising there and what kind of 3-betting range he's going to put you on.