Leak & general checkup - what am I missing?

ok, I didn't play much poker after I got my whole roll frozen on Netteller for 50-100NL, and I only had like 10 bucks sitting in my PS account. Well I decided to grind out low stakes to see if I could build a roll from so little, and I have finally got up to 10 buy ins at 25NL in 10 days. Can't wait to get back to 50NL, my goal will be 15 buy-ins before I move up.


I play only 6 max, currently 25NL

perceived strengths:
playing loose aggressive (37% flop) has me winning loads of small pots, losing medium pots, but my image has me getting paid on my large pots. I probably could shave off 2-3% of my see-flop % and maintain a loose image

But despite being loose aggressive PFR/Flop I have much more careful Turn and River play, with lots of check-calls when I'm unsure where I'm at on river.
high showdown win % (I think this means I'm avoiding a lot of bad river calls) of 71%
high overall win % of 1 out of 4 pots

perceive leaks:
- Button stealing too often with marginal hands (raising next to the button to take it)
- Cbeting flops I've raised that my opponent is very likely to have hit and not fold
- calling down people too much with mid pp
- calling raises with marginal aces out of position (what ace range do you call OOP? AJ?)
- calling re-raises with easily dominated hands like KQ, AJ, mid SCs,
- limping or raising ax OOP
- Too many bluffs in multiway pots w/ PFR's, esp. too many second barrels without solid outs, but sometimes I wonder if this image gets me paid on big pots (lose medium, win big)
- attempting to bluff calling stations

Probably biggest leak:
- Tendency after I stack someone to get super aggressive and slowly donking off a decent portion of my stack feeling a 'rush' after the big win, then wondering where the hell the money went.


I think I might benefit quitting after doubling or tripling up and taking a 10-15 minute break. Whenever I do this, I come back fresh and I'm back on my A game. For some reason when I buy in I usually watch my stack slowly increase and until I hit a big hand, but after hitting a big hand I generally watch my stack go down from getting too loose and dumb, a disheartening but frequent trend. Anyone else have this problem, if so what do you/did you do? What do you think of taking a break after doubling up, unless a donk is just stacking off and rebuying?

i actually like it. i used to say, "its not the hands you play, but the number of hands." and that put me in the same situation. unfortuanately, i have not been able to rest after doubling through.

you may be on to something.

I also play Stars 25NL 6max, I play semi-loose and passive and have been overall winning (+8 PTBB/100 hands) for a month.

I would go as far as saying that aggression and c-betting are overrated at this level. People will too often call you down with anything. No one folds overpairs (let alone TP), and people will call your c-bets with anything, from a missed small PP to a gutshot to overcards. Which means you sometimes have to fire multiple bullets (which could be scary).

Last night I tried playing more TAG (I ran at 24/15 while my usual numbers are 29/10) and I lost 6 buyins over 1k hands. I almost always raised with PPs and good suited connectors 1st in, c-bet in position, and found people calling 3 barrel half-pot bluffs with bottom pair while I missed my draws.

Keys to succeeding at this level (IMO):

Get good cards (i.e. flop sets get paid)
Identify the regulars and avoid them
When you play draws go for implied odds rather than fold equity.
Get into the pot cheap (i.e. limp / call moderate raises with suited gappers / suited aces / PPs in all positions, and let go if you don't hit!)
Read your opponents (this is definitely achievable)
Attempt to trap only against aggressive competition (e.g. limp-call PFR with AA/KK)

wow, i havent figured out 6max yet, and i am sure its because i overplay my hands.

i may give it another shot, but i cant help betting my good stuff. however, i do see a lot of junk winning SH games right now, too.

I have fair success with Cbet bluff, but I mainly only do it if checked to in position. Most of my cbets I only do if I:

A) I am checked to
B) I am drawing to some clean outs like a flush, straight, or overcards. Some of my biggest pots are frequently cbets that are called, then I hit a gutshot or an overcard.
C) I was the original raiser into the pot, at least 3x the BB. I've noticed there is a lot of bluff-believability-equity in being the original raiser at 25NL, much less than at say 100NL which are better at putting you on a hand. Some sessions I've been daring and raised with a lot of trash to isolate, then cbet'd half the pot size. It worked over 2/3 of the time at some tables... some tables you need a full PSB though.

I make quite a bit off cbets, and since I cbet almost every time I raise, it helps mask what I have quite a bit. I raise a lot on the button, or attempt to button steal one before or UTG. UTG is actually not as bad as people make it out to be, just have to loosen up your range. Frequently UTG I can take position against loose blind callers (a huge 25NL leak is all the calling of raises people make in the SB and BB).

I don't fire second barrels though, unless I put my opponent on a draw. Turn bluffs are much more expensive than flop bluffs, and it used to be a massive leak for me.

I don't see any reason to play TAG at 6max 25NL, theres a lot of scared players folding to cbets and people stacking off with TPTK or with an overpair. Seeing a lot of flops is EV+ because of how many donks stack off with TP/overpair.

I'm up now 22 buy-ins in a lil over 2 weeks, and I've never had such a steady increase in bankroll in relation to buy in, so I'm a bit hesitant to move back to 50NL or 100NL because I feel like I can crush 25NL. I think I will wait till I get to at least 20 50NL buyins before I move up...

my lack 'o success at 6max may be overplaying the turn (ie 2nd barrel), too.

mix, what range would you steal with from UTG?

cbetting, i agree with A (abuse your position), B (huge for me, too), but it seems C, for me gets "played back at" quite a bit. what do you do when you are check-raised, typically w/ no reads?

do you open-limp, or just come in firing?

when do you limp? behind open-limpers only? and i assume you hide behind limpers w/ just about any playable hand looking for a sneak attack, yes?

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Originally Posted by Chopper

mix, what range would you steal with from UTG?

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any suited ace, KQ, AJo-AK, j10s, qjs, kqs. I limp with PP to set mine.

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cbetting, i agree with A (abuse your position), B (huge for me, too), but it seems C, for me gets "played back at" quite a bit. what do you do when you are check-raised, typically w/ no reads?

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Well, it depends on the opponent and the flop. I leave some tables when i notice people defend against cbets a lot and seek out tables that are more tight-passive (there are plenty). Calling stations I don't cbet. I also don't C bet a flop I feel my opponent has hit, and rarely do I cbet a multiway pot.

If I have A10 and I raise $1 PF in position, and villain calls, flop is K J 8 rainbow, no way am I cbetting that flop because hes either hit or has a strong draw and will call me, and if I am called my hand will probably not improve in a way I can rely on (eg if a 10 hits and he has Q9 it gives him a straight) . Now same scenario and flop is 5 8 3 I definitely cbet, even OOP I might make it a PSB. Key here is that I don't want to make it cheap (some people will call 1/2 pot just to 'see another card' or 'because he's bluffing') and I want to make it expensive to play back at me. I fold to a decent size re-raise, but I've also defined his hand with the bet. I also think the play will work greater than 50% of the time (making it EV+) and I think that of the other 50%, I get 35% called and 15% reraised. So with 35% of the time called, I have a chance on the turn to improve as both my cards would give me top pair. If I improve, I make the same bet. If I don't improve and I'm checked to, I check again. If they called a full PSB on flop, the only way I can push them out of the hand is to continue with full PSB or an all in -- not worth the price of the pot.

Now with the remaining 15%, if the reraise isn't substantial and I've followed my cbet rules that say my hand has to be able to improve, I call depending on pot odds. Most of the time the reraise is small enough in relation to the pot that I call, but if the reraise is too large enough in relation to the pot (or if I don't think my hand will improve enough to win), I fold (there is some calc of implied odds going on too). 25NL is usually played very straight up, most people don't have the balls to re-raise unless they think they are winning. But plenty of people will call re-raises with bad pot odds. I think you may be overestimating how often people are 'playing back'. If you cbet with hands that can improve (I guess you can call it semi bluffing, but most people use that for Draws) you will make lots of money. You'll take pots you shouldn't, and if you hit your yahtzee cards you'll take a lot of money because you already showed strength.

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do you open-limp, or just come in firing?

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I rarely open limp, unless I have someone who limped behind me and my hand isn't strong enough for a big raise to push him out. My hand range actually tightens up with limpers behind me, and loosens up with nobody in front of me. If I'm first to enter the pot, I like to enter with a raise. This allows me to play mostly heads up flops which we know our opponent only hits the flop 1 out of 3 times, which is why cbetting works so well on weaker players. Key is that you want heads up pots...multiway is bad.

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when do you limp? behind open-limpers only? and i assume you hide behind limpers w/ just about any playable hand looking for a sneak attack, yes?

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The only hands I like to limp with are PP or low SC. I did a huge thread on how to play low to mid PP at 25 and 50NL:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...116&highlight=


I don't know what you mean by sneak attack -- are you implying limp with a strong hand? I never do that, and I don't know of a good reason to do so in 25NL. 25NL I think it's important to play very straight up -- bet your good hands, preflop(except I limp w/ pp to hit sets) and postflop. You don't want a multi-way pot when you have a strong hand, except when you hit a set :)

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If I have A10 and I raise $1 PF in position, and villain calls, flop is K J 8 rainbow, no way am I cbetting that flop

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You have to consider that while villain may indeed be holding a hand with a mix of middling/paint cards. But, he could be holding A-x, or a PP. Both of those hands he will fold to a continuation bet on the flop. In poker, there are no absolutes. So never c-betting this flop will be a surefire way to miss out on some value.

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Now same scenario and flop is 5 8 3 I definitely cbet, even OOP I might make it a PSB

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C-betting is almost always good. I wish i knew the exact source but i know that your opponent is only going to make a pair 33% of the time on any given flop.

Anyways, with this particular hand you should not generally lead out with a much bigger bet than on a more "threatening" looking board. Your c-bets should tend to look the same on any given flop - as well as those c-bets with very strong hands - since that way your opponents will not be able to tell when you are bluffing and when you are not. There is still a good chunk of your opponents range that missed this flop. K-10, A-9, etc. that will still fold this flop whether or not you bet 1/2PSB or the full pot (whether or not this discourages them from bluffing would make for an interesting discussion). But, you lose more when pocket pairs that are bigger than the board or those that flop sets call or raise your large flop bet.

Basically, while both flops look different, they only help your opponents hole cards slightly more often with the K-J-8rainbow flop. Therefore, there is little reason to drastically alter the size of your flop bets on the texture of the board, particularily when facing a single opponent.

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I also think the play will work greater than 50% of the time (making it EV+) and I think that of the other 50%, I get 35% called and 15% reraised. So with 35% of the time called, I have a chance on the turn to improve as both my cards would give me top pair.

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You need to consider the reverse implied odds of spiking that ace or 10 on the turn. When you make another PSB and get pushed AI. (call/fold?)

Pot odds would probably say call, and he would probably turn over a set.

If you make that bet and he folds his J-J, you lost some value where a smaller bet might have kept him along for another small river bet (2 small bets on 2 streets is usually > 1 big bet on 1 street).

Best flops to c-bet are actually between KJ8 and 583. KXX QXX AXX. That way you are representing something. If you c-bet on 583 you are going to get many people to call or raise you with mid/small pockets.

mix, by "sneak attack," i mean to hide behind a limper or two with a very marginal hand...like 86s. and bet the A-rag flop when checked to.

essentially, play a starting range you would not usually play in the interest of hitting 2 pair, trips, gapped straight draws, etc. something you can take initiative with when the flop hits you, or obviously misses everybody else. hopefully, you get to show your trashy 2 pair (T6s) and let everyone see that when the pot is limped, you may play any two cards, though you really dont "loosen" up much, you just look like you do.

hope that makes more sense, but prolly not.

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Originally Posted by mixchange

Probably biggest leak:
- Tendency after I stack someone to get super aggressive and slowly donking off a decent portion of my stack feeling a 'rush' after the big win, then wondering where the hell the money went.

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This could be a big leak, but I think your biggest leak is your 71% showdown winning percentage. That's far too high, and you're folding in way too many spots.

fold more cbet less. It will make a difference. Its quite possible to beat games playing 25/15 25/20 or 30/20 if you can put players on hands and get value lots.