Hand versus Chardrian

Here's an old hand versus chardrian that I'm really not sure whether i should call or not, and still after analyzing it am not sure. Char is 22/18, very aggressive, and makes big bluffs. Is he capable of bluffing in this situation? Yes. Is he doing it a lot? A decent amount.
The big problem I have with this hand is Char's range is pretty balanced here I think. I'm not sure he's going to play this any differently without a set rather than with a set/two pair. Which really puts me in a crappy spot. Reasons I feel inclined to call.
1. My hand is face up. There's a decent chance that feeling I have an overpair here Char would bet less but idk. Pushing probably has more value since i may have to felt a bluff here, but idk that he's thinking that.
2. He didn't threebet pre. I raised on the BU and I know there are a lot of people who like to threebet there PP's pre, but im really not sure if char is one of those. I'm pretty sure he'd threebet 9's here. So his range is extrememly tight. 55,33, 53. all draws besides 42 im beating.
3. His turn bet is fishy. Normally on a board this drawy im betting more with a set, but he didn't. which kind of looks like he's repping a set rather than actually having one. Although since my hands face up this point is kind of moot because he'd want to get a turn call.

The tells leaning towards calling obviously aren't very strong. Thoughts? Alternate lines? Maybe push turn? Although we fold pure bluffs there.

POKERSTARS GAME #9226271347: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/03 - 01:46:17 (ET)
Table 'Tarka' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: VarlosZ ($201.25 in chips)
Seat 2: TFlash ($199 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape ($285.90 in chips)
Seat 4: fv7682 ($203.60 in chips)
Seat 5: chardrian ($234.30 in chips)
Seat 6: JonnyCosMo ($200 in chips)
fv7682: posts small blind $1
chardrian: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [As Ah]
JonnyCosMo: folds
VarlosZ: folds
TFlash: folds
redgrape: raises $4 to $6
fv7682: folds
chardrian: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [9h 5s 3c]
fv7682 leaves the table
chardrian: checks
redgrape: bets $10
chardrian: raises $23 to $33
redgrape: calls $23
*** TURN *** [9h 5s 3c] [6d]
holdemty1 joins the table at seat #4
chardrian: bets $45
redgrape: calls $45
*** RIVER *** [9h 5s 3c 6d] [Qc]
chardrian: bets $150.30 and is all-in
redgrape said, "alright if this is a bluff nice hand i think"
redgrape: ?????

i insta call here. people that play tourneys are so used to slowplaying everything i would just assume he is bluffing. of course if you have played with him enuogh to not believe this then folding is cool too.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

all draws besides 42 im beating.

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another draw that is a more likely holding has 8 outs on the flop that you forget

errr actually 2 more but 67 seems more likely than 64 and 42 given his preflop vpip

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Originally Posted by gabe

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

all draws besides 42 im beating.

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another draw that is a more likely holding has 8 outs on the flop that you forget

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What? The only draw i see that hit on the turn is 42, which is the other one. Oh, maybe you just mean there are more draws on the flop? Yeah I know that, I said im beating all draws except 42 which hit.

Yeah, I call here.
The flop is a good one for him to re-raise with draws, one pair hands and even air given that it probably missed the high cards you raised with, his turn bet looks more like a draw, second barrel bluff but then like you said after just calling the turn your hand is face up & he most likely puts you on an overpair that wants cheap showdown.
Given that he now has this read, his river bet looks like it wants to fold an overpair not get value out of it with a better hand, this makes me call.

87 too

Yeah, I call here too. Your hand is vastly underrepped and you're bvb.

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Yeah, I call here too. Your hand is vastly underrepped

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I'm pretty sure Char realizes i have AA-QQ

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Yeah, I call here too. Your hand is vastly underrepped

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I'm pretty sure Char realizes i have AA-QQ

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I bet he thinks TT-JJ or weak top pair. You have a wide opening range and so if you call his flop and turn bets instead of reraising you probably have a weak hand.

His turn bet is very weak and I am thinking about the value of raising him on the turn.

You think you have AA-QQ. You are repping A9, weak overpair, a draw.

It's hard to fold when you underrep your hand. Something i've noticed is you do this a lot and make nitty folds, And although a lot of these players aren't thinking on more than 1 level (Midnight Tokr hand... remember) you still have to take into account what he thinks your cards are. And you have to more accurately guess that because your hand does not look like AA-QQ

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'm pretty sure Char realizes i have AA-QQ

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You raised from the button, he's giving you a lot less credit.

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Originally Posted by Massimo

You think you have AA-QQ. You are repping A9, weak overpair, a draw.

It's hard to fold when you underrep your hand. Something i've noticed is you do this a lot and make nitty folds, And although a lot of these players aren't thinking on more than 1 level (Midnight Tokr hand... remember) you still have to take into account what he thinks your cards are. And you have to more accurately guess that because your hand does not look like AA-QQ

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You're right, A9 to but otherwise overpair. This makes me a lot more inclined to call.
I tend not to fold when i underrep my hand, but underreping doesnt matter that much when opp isnt good or doesn't bluff. here my hand isnt underrepped however, its easy for opp to put this in my range.
There's a diff between a passive line and underreping.
and lol its Char, he's better than tokr i think. lol 1st leveler.

id call.
your hand is underrepped and an open river shove is more of bluff than a river c/r is IMO, unless he had like a gutshot and flush draw and hopes you think hes bluffing the river when he really isnt.
Other than that, he could have like KQs with a flop flush draw and overs and thinks tp goot on the river considering you look to have a draw or tp type hand..

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

here my hand isnt underrepped however, its easy for opp to put this in my range.

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no

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Originally Posted by WildBobAA

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

here my hand isnt underrepped however, its easy for opp to put this in my range.

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no

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alright.

I called he showed KJ.

He probably put you on a weak 9, maybe T9 or J9 or something which is what you played it like.

Let's talk about the turn. Does everyone like just calling?

I like calling his flop c/r to let him follow through on the turn, but what's the game plan from there? Do we expect him to shut down after two calls or are we calling to induce this sort of shove?

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Originally Posted by WildBobAA

He probably put you on a weak 9, maybe T9 or J9 or something which is what you played it like.

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After posting this id think that to but after the hand he chatted "thought u'd fold AA-QQ"

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Let's talk about the turn. Do we expect him to shut down after two calls or are we calling to induce this sort of shove?

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This is exactly how and why I play it like this. Lose less money when you're beat (assuming a set doesn't always shove) and win more money by getting aggressive bluffers or weaker hands to not be afraid to put more money in the pot.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

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Originally Posted by WildBobAA

He probably put you on a weak 9, maybe T9 or J9 or something which is what you played it like.

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After posting this id think that to but after the hand he chatted "thought u'd fold AA-QQ"

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this is rubbish IMO. Limit talking.

On this horrible board when he c/r's oop he should you know you arent folding unless the turn is a horrible card, in which case i call flop and turn and let him bet river as we arent folding river anyway once turn is blank.

Edit:hyAHCAHCAHCACH
why do i think there is a flush draw on the flop?

meh, i still think id felt this versus a decent player who is non-nitty.

Agreed with galapogos, although we are behind on the turn a lot, we get more value from calling and calling a river bet from pure bluffs. Draws are calling a shove anyways so why not get some value when they miss?

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

this is rubbish IMO. Limit talking.

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If you never folded AA heads-up to the flop in limit, you're pretty much playing it right.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Agreed with galapogos, although we are behind on the turn a lot, we get more value from calling and calling a river bet from pure bluffs. Draws are calling a shove anyways so why not get some value when they miss?

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How often is he shoving the river on air vs shutting down? If a shove gets called by draws, you should shove this turn because that's a really terrible mistake!

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Agreed with galapogos, although we are behind on the turn a lot, we get more value from calling and calling a river bet from pure bluffs. Draws are calling a shove anyways so why not get some value when they miss?

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How often is he shoving the river on air vs shutting down? If a shove gets called by draws, you should shove this turn because that's a really terrible mistake!

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He doesn't always have to have air here. It could just be a hand that would be scared off by a shove on the turn. Sometime he could have a draw here but this board isn't that dangerous, there's better boards for shoving the turn I think.

looks like an ez call 2 me.

He may have been C/R flop to take it down with a mid-strength hand then realized when you stuck around that the only way to win the pot was by bluffing big.

pay off 333 555 allll day.

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

He doesn't always have to have air here. It could just be a hand that would be scared off by a shove on the turn. Sometime he could have a draw here but this board isn't that dangerous, there's better boards for shoving the turn I think.

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After his turn bet, he's put $90ish into the pot with $150ish behind. Very few hands are drawing dead to Aces and we're probably paying off the river too, so there is considerable value in forcing him off a live hand. Certainly more value in getting him to shove worse hands on the river, but how often is he going to do that?

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

He doesn't always have to have air here. It could just be a hand that would be scared off by a shove on the turn. Sometime he could have a draw here but this board isn't that dangerous, there's better boards for shoving the turn I think.

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After his turn bet, he's put $90ish into the pot with $150ish behind. Very few hands are drawing dead to Aces and we're probably paying off the river too, so there is considerable value in forcing him off a live hand. Certainly more value in getting him to shove worse hands on the river, but how often is he going to do that?

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So you want to raise and commit yourself to a hand that beats you, and scare off any live hand you you are still considerably ahead of which could very well bet again or check and call a reasonable value bet?

his open river shove looks more like a bluff. If he'd potted it its a tougher decision (although not THAT hard i dont think)
Also, if he'd c/r'ed all in its probably not a bluff because you are priced in anyway i think.
So unless you have seen him open shove the river with a nut something this river is insta-call just for the line, it screams plz dont call IMO.

I don't fold AA to other FTRers.

I need to come into this forum more. Didn't realize that you posted this hand...

I'll tell you my thought process on this hand.

I know you are loose aggressive, but I also know that you can't put me on hands. I don't remember what I had, but I would play any two this way.

The flop was harmless, so I checkraised expecting to take it down there.

Your call made me think, oh crap, he actually has a hand or he has a hand like AQ, AK and thinks he can take me off of it on the turn.

The turn is nice for me because it definitely didn't help you and easily could have helped me with a semibluff with hands like 78, 47, 56, 59. When you called, I put you squarely on an overpair, TT-AA with the slight chance that you had some monster hand like a set and a slighter chance that you were trying to make a huge call with a hand like 44, 77, or 88.

The river was a Q. I almost conceded but then made the classic mistake of thinking that the only way I can win is by pushing and convinced myself that if you had a hand like 44, 77, 88 you'd fold and maybe you could actually fold an overpair here because you are a thinking player.

Btw - I would play this hand exactly the same way with: 33, 55, 99, 66, 35, 56, 69, and 78. I also would have called me if I were you.

Yeah i know, you're extremely hard to read but your so aggro i really dont think i can fold here. Although at the time, even though it wasn't true i didn't think you'd push with a nut hand.

umm yeah pretty easy call for me atleast. Also try raising 4xbb instead of 3xBB when your playing donks you want to build the pot as fast as you can so bet bet bet = stack. 2p2 line ftw :D.

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Originally Posted by YeaURBad

Also try raising 4xbb instead of 3xBB

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This is a controversial point. ISF is on the button and it's folded to him, i used to do a 4xBB raise in that situation but i've switched to 3x and i feel it accomplishes what i want to do more. He's raising a wide range from the Button anyway. It keeps the pots small and allows you to deal with light three bettors more easily

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2p2 line ftw

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lol, a 2p2er would be more like OMG I HAVE ACES, lets do the "Stack-a-donk" line! (also known as check-pushing the turn after either betting the flop or calling a flop raise OOP (BTW, the phrase stack-a-donk has to be the most annoying poker phrase in the world.))

I guess its controversial but if you play 200nl and below which I consider ssnl then I really really think you should raise 4x. More donks, builds pot faster. Yes you can call 3bets more lightly but...its 200nl and theres more donks where you want to build the pot and use the bet bet bet line then at say 400nl+ where its harder to get stacks and 3betting is more frequent. :D

oh, well I was taught raise 3x on BU with all raising hands in folded to pot on BU, but is this not good advice?

It obvious matters who's in the blinds whether you raise 3x or 4x. If they are tight, you might as well raise 4x, since they will fold all crap either way. I also don't think they will re-raise less vs. 4x except maybe a thinking player on a re-steal or something.

But you have to balance raising big pairs 4x+ on BU some way.... maybe raise lower SC this way (since you are happy to get blinds, and don't really want to get called by like K8s and stuff that crushes you). Or maybe all pairs (might be too readable).

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

oh, well I was taught raise 3x on BU with all raising hands in folded to pot on BU, but is this not good advice?

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I'd do this at higher levels, but not 100NL or 200NL. Every raise I open with is 4xbb regardless of my position.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

his open river shove looks more like a bluff. If he'd potted it its a tougher decision (although not THAT hard i dont think)
Also, if he'd c/r'ed all in its probably not a bluff because you are priced in anyway i think.
So unless you have seen him open shove the river with a nut something this river is insta-call just for the line, it screams plz dont call IMO.

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I'm a little lost here - are u saying I should've potted the turn or the river? By the time the river came my push was less than the pot.

Regarding my turn bet - maybe I need to tinker my game, but I generally feel that potting the turn is dumb cuz u induce hands u r beating to fold, and often put yourself in really crappy pot odds decisions if you are behind. If I had a hand like 55 here I play it identically. pot was about 75 - I bet 45 (actually this was weaker than normal for me - normally I'd bet about 55 here). Giving him like 2.5 to 1. It's a good bet to induce a hand like 44, 77, 88, TT-AA to call or come over the top of me.

It's really important to figure out:
1. If a player calls a flop raise and folds turn
2. If a player calls a flop raise and turn bet but folds river
3. If a player is never folding when he calls a flop raise.