Please critique this play

Ok, so I was running great last night in the FTOPS event #4 $1000+ 60 NL hold 'em tourney. 40th in chips with 130 people remaining (0ut of 960). Stack = 21000, blinds 300-600, antes 50. Starting pot 1350.

The situation:

Dealer +2 raises to 1900 (He has about 10,000 chips). SB calls (25,000 chips). I have A-Tc in the bb. I call. Flop 4d-7h-Qc. Checks all around. Jc comes off on the turn. SB checks, I bet 4000 into 6000 pot, original raiser folds, SB calls. 2d comes off on the river. SB checks, I bet 7000 into 14000 pot. He insta-calls with 8-8. He called so fast I think he had the "call any" box checked before I even bet. Needless to say this shook me up quite a bit. I had an extremely tight table image, as I had gone about 3 revolutions without playing a hand because of a really dead run of cards. I felt like my turn bet represented a value bet (i.e. J-T out of the bb, etc), and not a semi-bluff. Needless to say, I was left crippled with 7000 chips, and busted a short time later when I pushed 8-8 vs. KQ and lost the race. Can anyone see a flaw in my betting pattern there? I really feel like if his cards were turned face up on the table I probably would've played it exactly the same way. He had the type of hand I pegged him for.........and I'm left wondering if his read was just that good or if for some reason he just couldn't muck 8-8.

I would appreciate any feedback! Thanks.

Do you play 1k MTTs regularly or did you win a satellite? I think at 1k, you should be able to figure out this call... :?

Your turn bet tells your opponent that:
1. You are trying to steal the pot
2. You are semi-bluffing
3. You are value betting the jack

If 1, then 88 is still ahead, if 2, then 88 is also still ahead. But most importantly, if 3, a solid player would usually NOT value bet JT 1/2 pot on the river (you should know why).

Given all this, don't you think there is at least 25% chance that you are bluffing? Because if the likelyhood of a bluff is at least 25%, he should call. Here I would say the likelyhood of a bluff is more like 75%. In other words, instacall.

agree with pocket, you took a weird line, especially with a tight image, and priced him in on the river.

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.

Pocketfours, to answer your question, I don't play 1Ks regularly. I did win a sattelite into the event. I was fortunate enough a few weeks back to pull a nice cash in the Sunday 400K after a nice run in the 22 K guarantees set me up to enter, building my bankroll to a nice level. I'm fully aware that I still have plenty to learn, and that's why I'm here. You guys have some great players on this board, and I'd like to get to that level someday.

To elaborate further on the play.........given that he has called the turn bet in that situation- 1) I'm aware that there is no chance I can win the pot at showdown, 2) I basically have two options, check and concede the hand, or make a bet. I honestly felt like an all-in bet there would have been an easier call than 1/2 pot. I think I may have overcomplicated things there by trying to represent a value bet on the river as well, but my instinct is that he was calling regardless of bet size.

Do you advocate checking in that situation once he has called the turn, or is there another angle you would've taken to this hand?

Since we know the cards it's tough to give a real reply, but if you think someone will bet, check raising the turn would be the best option.

Also, if you check the turn and get a free card, it costs a lot less to bluff the river.

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I honestly felt like an all-in bet there would have been an easier call than 1/2 pot.

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this doesn't make a lot of sense. If you move in, you have to be bluffing a lot more often then when you bet 7k for him to call. I'd rather make an effort to win this nice pot as opposed to saving the 7k.

Pre flop, if you don't want to re raise here, folding may be a better choice. This is a hard pot to play if you flop top pair against a tight opener. If he's not tight, pop him now and get SB's dead money.

Saying all that I don't think you played it bad, he just played it better.

I know this is a 'high stakes' tourney, but you'll get more replies posting MTTs in the MTT forum.

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Originally Posted by Balboni

Pocketfours, to answer your question, I don't play 1Ks regularly. I did win a sattelite into the event.

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Would have been nice to mention this in the first post so we would know what kind of player we are trying to help. No worries though :) Winning satellites offer excellent learning opportunities so good for you...

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Originally Posted by Balboni

To elaborate further on the play.........given that he has called the turn bet in that situation- 1) I'm aware that there is no chance I can win the pot at showdown, 2) I basically have two options, check and concede the hand, or make a bet. I honestly felt like an all-in bet there would have been an easier call than 1/2 pot. I think I may have overcomplicated things there by trying to represent a value bet on the river as well, but my instinct is that he was calling regardless of bet size.

Do you advocate checking in that situation once he has called the turn, or is there another angle you would've taken to this hand?

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The only clear advice I can give here is, like drmc said, fold your garbage hand preflop, unless raiser is ultra loose, in which case you might want to reraise all-in here (assuming your tight image).

Your hand is garbage, you don't have the lead, you are out of position and you are severely outskilled - FOLD.

My only question is- is it possible to fold pf in this situation with 4850 in the pot (1900 raise, sb call, my bb of 600, and 9 antes of 50) when it only costs 1300 to call there? Ironically enough, I had considered a squeeze play in that situation, obviously being aware that the sb caller had the type of hand he had. In retrospect, I feel as if I should've taken this approach rather than a pf fold or a pf call. I got caught up in the bubble getting close, and rather than outright playing to win and making the move there, I took the conservative route, which ironically ended up costing me much more than taking the aggressive route. The worst that happens there if I'm aggressive is that I lose 10,000 chips to the pf raiser, although in retrospect it appears as if he would've folded his hand. All in all, I'm chalking it up to learning, and I certainly learned a good lesson the other night. There was definitely no better online experience for me than sitting down in that type of tourney with the quality of players that were there. Always a learning experience, and I'm sure it will help me down the road.

Thanks again for your responses guys.

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Originally Posted by Balboni

My only question is- is it possible to fold pf in this situation with 4850 in the pot (1900 raise, sb call, my bb of 600, and 9 antes of 50) when it only costs 1300 to call there?

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It is indeed possible to fold here, regardless of pot odds. If your stacks were deeper you could call.

If you could have seen that he was holding 88, then you would of course have squeezed here.

The more and more I've analyzed the hand, the more I realize how bad of a play it was to bluff that river. I put him on a pair, he called with his pair on the turn, why would a big fat brick on the river change his mind about whether or not he thought his hand was good? If he thinks its good on the turn, he obviously thinks its good on the river as well. The only time I should bet there is if I think he's also holding two clubs. Such a rookie mistake, and I wish I would've thought it through like that during the hand!

i'm not a high stakes or mtt player, but i have a question.

why is it such an obvious river call? why can't hero have Qx and played this line? why can't hero have an even better hand such as a set?
hero checks the flop because he wants pf agg to bet. hero bets turn and river because for value, when he sees that villain is not going to bet behind.
i agree that if you're trying to represent Jx here, it's definitely a bad line. Jx would bet the turn but check the river.

why can't balboni be holding TP? Why is it such an obvious call for 88?

It's a pretty big turn call with your stack size so I don't think SB folds alot to a river bet. Coupled with the fact that you're ahead of several draws (although it's unlikely that he's got sooooted connectors with the cold call preflop), I think checking is best.

On the other hand, a river shove is pretty powerful and sb's line is very weak. Jx will fold alot..

Why can't he have Qx? Just because he checked the flop?

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Why can't he have Qx? Just because he checked the flop?

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no one said he can't have it. he just doesn' t have it often enough for 88 to fold getting this price on a brick river.

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

a solid player would usually NOT value bet JT 1/2 pot on the river (you should know why).

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Better hands call, worse hands fold.. right?