How did i play this? Good fold?

His bet was too big on river to justify a call I think.............

POKERSTARS GAME #10295241521: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/06/06 - 01:05:12 (ET)
Table 'Charon IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DERUY ($10.10 in chips)
Seat 2: KAAAA ($7.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Pythonic ($26.95 in chips)
Seat 4: Harrylux ($14 in chips)
Seat 7: AnarchyKid24 ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 8: angelique924 ($9.80 in chips)
Seat 9: pr1me_time1 ($19.65 in chips)
AnarchyKid24: posts small blind $0.05
angelique924: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pythonic [Jd Jh]
pr1me_time1: folds
DERUY: raises $0.30 to $0.40
KAAAA: folds
Pythonic: calls $0.40
Harrylux: folds
AnarchyKid24: folds
angelique924: folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 7s Jc]
DERUY: bets $0.70
Pythonic: raises $0.70 to $1.40
DERUY: calls $0.70
*** TURN *** [Td 7s Jc] [Kh]
DERUY: checks
Pythonic: checks
*** RIVER *** [Td 7s Jc Kh] [4h]
DERUY: bets $5
Pythonic said, "AQ or KK?"
Pythonic said, "laying down JJJ, nh"
Pythonic: folds
DERUY collected $3.60 from pot
DERUY: doesn't show hand

are you joking? you can't seriously put him on a 2 hand range?
you should of raised more on flop, you should of bet the turn, but as played you should be shoving over him @ 10NL, most of the time he will flip over AK/KJ/QJ.

this is a call at worst imo.

Brutally played preflop. Think about what he puts you on. You called a 4BB raise preflop, then min raised the flop bet. then when he checks his crap on the turn to find out where you are after re-raising the flop you check behind. He decided to bluff you off a hand you played like a weak TP or MP hand. You are so far ahead here and left so much money on the table it's not funny. Then to top it off, you tell him how bad you played by telling him your laydown, showing you cna be bluffed off of a monster.

it sounds harsh, but you couldn't of played the hand much worse, he bluffed you off the pot because you told him you had an awful hand, played it like an awful hand, then folded like an awful hand... YET you had a very very very good hand :)

Weird. Just make it like $2.50 on the flop and try to get the rest in ASAP. You flopped top set in a raised pot dude. Unless the board goes 4 straight or 4 flush my stack is going in every time here. IF you get coolered just reload and move on :D

Villian had AQs. I know the guy and he emailed me hand history later.

what he had is totally irrelevant, your being results orientated.

3bet preflop
Hammer the flop.
get it all in on the turn
fill up on the river.

You are destined to be a losing player if you don't play big pairs and top sets hard.

I was trying to somewhat slowplay the flop in case he had AK and did not want him to fold if I raised too much on the flop. This is only the second time I have layed down trips like this in my life and have been right both times. His giant $5 bet on the river gave it away and I am just good at reading people.
I assure you that I am a winning player. My BB/100 is 18.79 for the last 20,000 hands.

Well Ive played a good 5k hands with DERUY from 10NL and he is/was a calling station with any or most draws. If I had a hand with him I bet bet bet. Is his avatar the two fit chicks still?


Congrats on the winrate. Why you not moved up making $4ish per 100 hands. You should have won enough to play 25NL by now.

That was disgusting. If you ever fold here again you should be shot. You are TERRIBLE at reading people because even if AQ was in his range, so were a dozen other hands you beat. It's impossible to put a player on one or two hands on a board like this, simply impossible. Do you really think an overbet of this sort on the river is always the nuts? That's so far from the truth that it hurts to see you sticking to your beliefs in the face of advice.

Anyway, nh, but not nf. Good luck and I hope you are learning from these posts, not refusing to take on board what we're saying.

Yea you played that pretty bad. Raise more on the flop, fire turn, try to get your stack all in. Villain is a donk.

I made a great read you people are butchering me. Like I said, I have only folded hands like this twice in my life and have been right "both" times.

Biondino: I understand what you are saying but I know how villian plays and made the right play because it isn't impossible to put people on hands.

Raise the flop more bet the turn and get the rest in.
Christ!!! Seriously you have a set. Rule of thumb. When you have a set get it all in!

I thought we are supposed to smooth call the flop with a set and then reraise the turn???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dmg7

are you joking? you can't seriously put him on a 2 hand range?

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3 hands actually....8/9

Quote:

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Congrats on the winrate. Why you not moved up making $4ish per 100 hands. You should have won enough to play 25NL by now.

---

Have a $800 roll right now and intend to move up to 25NL in about a month. I just like pounding them at this level. Turned $60 into $800 in 60 days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dmg7

are you joking? you can't seriously put him on a 2 hand range?

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3 hands actually....8/9

---

Are you including this in his range because you can actually put UTG+1 on raising 89 here? or are you just saying this because anytime someone makes a big river bet you assume they have the nuts/near nuts?

Q9 beats you too but I think you are missing the point.

All that people are saying is that is ludicrous to think that you can put a person on such a miniscule hand range especially with this board texture. But you made a read and went with it so hopefully that continues to work for you.

od

Villian is around 34/12, so he could have been holding 8/9 or Q/9. Alarms simply went off with a raise that big on the river. He checked the turn looking to check raise me but I sniffed it out. That and I had won like 3 big pots in row and we all know how that goes online.
He later went on to say that he only should have bet $2 on the river because his bet gave it away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

I thought we are supposed to smooth call the flop with a set and then reraise the turn???

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You're supposed to do whatever gets the money in.

I prefer raising the flop and shoving the turn, but meh, it depends on so much stuff. What I'm saying is that there's not a particular way of playing a hand like "THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY A SET".. Getting out of the mindset that I've quoted is how you improve at poker.

HH was butchery, as everyone else has said.


I think this is very often a threebet preflop as well, although I'm not too sure looking at what others have said.

I typically get all of my money in with sets but this hand didnt seem right to me. I don't like reraising JJ preflop because I don't think I know how to play it correctly when overcards come on the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

I thought we are supposed to smooth call the flop with a set and then reraise the turn???

---

You can't reraise what ain't raised. Your making things up to justify a big fold. There is no way with you calling a preflop raise( any two broadways, any pair, most suited connectors) then calling a STD c-bet from villain, that with him checking the turn you can put him on ANY hand. There was nothing in this hand that can put him on anything. You want everyone to pat you on the back and tell you you made a great laydown, and justify it by how well you beat the stakes and built your bankroll. I have news for you. You left a stack on the table, he never sent you an email and you played this horribly. Many players better than you have told you this in this thread and you refuse to believe them, your loss.

By the way your being results oriented. The money has to go in, all of it. He could have an underset as easily as KJ, in this hand.

For whatever it's worth at this point, here's my line:
3bet preflop to $1.20 with the intentions of taking down the pot or seeing the flop heads up against villain. If villain repops it, we can then put him on a much more narrow range and depending on the size of the 4bet we're either done with the hand or we have great odds to set hunt.

I think this way, we have an easier time getting it all in on the flop/turn if villain has any kind of a hand.

It's been awhile, but wasn't it Sklansky who said in NLT&P that when you flop a set you should try and size your bets so that getting it all in by the river is academic, assuming villain is coming along for the ride.

As played I hate the minbet on the flop and the check behind on the turn(bleh!). I push everytime on the river though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

I thought we are supposed to smooth call the flop with a set and then reraise the turn???

---

You can't reraise what ain't raised. Your making things up to justify a big fold. There is no way with you calling a preflop raise( any two broadways, any pair, most suited connectors) then calling a STD c-bet from villain, that with him checking the turn you can put him on ANY hand. There was nothing in this hand that can put him on anything. You want everyone to pat you on the back and tell you you made a great laydown, and justify it by how well you beat the stakes and built your bankroll. I have news for you. You left a stack on the table, he never sent you an email and you played this horribly. Many players better than you have told you this in this thread and you refuse to believe them, your loss.

By the way your being results oriented. The money has to go in, all of it. He could have an underset as easily as KJ, in this hand.

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Dude, he had AQ WTF!!! I've only layed down hands like this twice and was right. The money does not have to go all in just because you hit trips. You can push all in all you want with draws on the board, let me know how that works out for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Pythonic said, "AQ or KK?"
Pythonic said, "laying down JJJ, nh"
Pythonic: folds
DERUY collected $3.60 from pot
DERUY: doesn't show hand

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You didnt put him on anything but AQ and KK. and that is going to be your fatal error... if your SO frikkin good at making reads, and i mean to make this sort of read and be as accurate as your making out to be, you wouldn't be playing @ 10NL...

this sounds harsh but the way you've responded to peoples advice, (players obviously of far greater ability and experience than you at this moment), makes me think your just chatting out of your backside. Especially the whole email rubbish, if you was SO sure he had AQ why did you even need to email him asking? because to fold JJJ you had to be pretty 100% confident thats what he was holding.

to another point, regardless of the fold, you played the flop terribadly as well.

I already said the flop was played bad but only because of what the turn brought, i was trying to slowplay and it backfired. I planned on raising or reraising the turn but after re-evalauting decided not to.

I listen to people's advise on here but this was one of those circumstances where you have to go against what you normally would do. I was beat on the turn by the size of the river bet and if nobody can see that then oh well.

Quote:

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You didnt put him on anything but AQ and KK. and that is going to be your fatal error... if your SO frikkin good at making reads, and i mean to make this sort of read and be as accurate as your making out to be, you wouldn't be playing @ 10NL...

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Getting there, turned $60 into $800 in 60 days.

lol this thread was pretty funny preflop and every street is played horribly.
the results dont matter here. neither does running hot at 10nl.

Saved money regardless of how it was played.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Saved money regardless of how it was played.

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wrong

First off, this was not the original thread title.
Second, you posted this looking for a pat on the back for a great laydown.
Third, not re raising JJ in this position is costing you a lot of money
fourth, defending a hand played by the results, which you claim to be AQ, instead of played, is not what we are here to do. If you knew what he had and made such a great fucken lay down, post it in the tales forum, not the fucken HH forum where people comment on the play of a hand, not your mind reading ability.

As played, you lost a lot of money, doesn't matter what he had. And not re raising JJ and not raising JJJ on the flop of a $!0NL game is spew. GL with your HUGE BR, you will need it.

Trainer: Only done this twice and was right both times. Nuff said.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Saved money regardless of how it was played.

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well if your going to look at it that way (wrong way...) you would have saved more money by playing the previous streets right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Trainer: Only done this twice and was right both times. Nuff said.......

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when you act like this you are asking for peope to be harsh to you.

so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

Quote:

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so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

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What is wrong with trying to trap on the flop and evaluating after turn card?

Quote:

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well if your going to look at it that way (wrong way...) you would have saved more money by playing the previous streets right.

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And if villian has KK or 7/8 how does that save me money?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

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What is wrong with trying to trap on the flop and evaluating after turn card?

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raise preflop.
trap on the flop?? evaluating after the turn card?? you didnt trap the flop... your evaluation was to check behind on the turn??????? that makes no sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

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What is wrong with trying to trap on the flop and evaluating after turn card?

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*** TURN *** [Td 7s Jc] [Kh]
DERUY: checks
Pythonic: checks
*** RIVER *** [Td 7s Jc Kh] [4h]
DERUY: bets $5
Pythonic said, "AQ or KK?"
Pythonic said, "laying down JJJ, nh"
Pythonic: folds
DERUY collected $3.60 from pot

Trapping at $10NL is a useless move when players will call down with TPMK for stacks. Get the money in when ahead and leave the tricks for your move to $25NL where they are much better,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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well if your going to look at it that way (wrong way...) you would have saved more money by playing the previous streets right.

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And if villian has KK or 7/8 how does that save me money?

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7/8?

KK? does it look like he has KK? no.
but if he were to have a hand like that you would probably find out a lot easier by playing this correctly.

Keep changing the title you'll get it right soon enough. And if you don't want to hear the truth why do you keep changing the title to questions like "good fold?" "How did I play this?" What are you waiting to hear???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

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What is wrong with trying to trap on the flop and evaluating after turn card?

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raise preflop.
trap on the flop?? evaluating after the turn card?? you didnt trap the flop... your evaluation was to check behind on the turn??????? that makes no sense.

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Checked behind turn because I sensed I was beat. Villain likes to check raise made hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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so my harsh response: you fucking suck and have no idea what you are doing by the looks of this hand.

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What is wrong with trying to trap on the flop and evaluating after turn card?

---

*** TURN *** [Td 7s Jc] [Kh]
DERUY: checks
Pythonic: checks
*** RIVER *** [Td 7s Jc Kh] [4h]
DERUY: bets $5
Pythonic said, "AQ or KK?"
Pythonic said, "laying down JJJ, nh"
Pythonic: folds
DERUY collected $3.60 from pot

Trapping at $10NL is a useless move when players will call down with TPMK for stacks. Get the money in when ahead and leave the tricks for your move to $25NL where they are much better,

---

Bad players yes but not the good ones. I understand what you are saying man, didn't mean to get offensive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Keep changing the title you'll get it right soon enough. And if you don't want to hear the truth why do you keep changing the title to questions like "good fold?" "How did I play this?" What are you waiting to hear???

---

Tried to put it back to what it was, oh well...forgot a fews words.

Pythonic, 4 times you've said "right twice". But you're not clueless about poker and you've obviously read lots of FTR.

So, you'll know about sample sizes. You will know, deep down even if you're not admitting to yourself, that a sample size of two is worth LITERALLY zero. Nothing.

This guy is a 34/12. Now, you're right in that this increases his range to include 89 and Q9, at a push. But - and this is where you're bloodymindedly refusing to see the point - it's his RANGE that matters here. You have to call, or raise, or fold, depending on how often you think you're ahead or behind. So, I am going to list, here, the hands that you beat and the hands you don't beat, going on what a 34/12 might realistically be playing. I hope you agree that the flop action and turn action give almost no clue as to villain's hand.

You beat on flop (hands that are good enough to bet - though obv any two cards are good enough to cbet - and then call your raise, assuming a normal 34/12):
AA
AK
AQ
AJ
AT
KQ
KJ
KT
QQ
QJ
JT
TT
T7
77

You beat from turn and river:
Kxs
44
K4

Hands that beat you on flop:
89
KK

Hands that beat you on river:
Q9
AQ

Now, as for the big river bet. I'm sure you understand that poker is, in part, about misleading your opponent. So, it's not a big leap to assume that a big bet of this type actually DOESN'T want to be called. This - combined with the villain's check on the turn (which again *could* mean strength, but also will usually mean weakness) - indicates that a bluff, or a big bet with a marginal hand - which is often a leak, but a common one at low levels - is part of his range as well. Even if he is bluffing only 20% of the time, that makes a massive difference to your odds when it comes to you call/raising his bet.

So, to sum up: of the hands a 34/12 is likely to have played, you are ahead of 18 (generously counting Kxs as one hand, and air as one hand) and behind 4. Weighting them all the same (which is slightly inaccurate as pairs are dealt a lot less often than unpaired hands, but the difference is small enough to ignore here), this puts you ahead OVER 80% OF THE TIME.

Let's be even more generous to you here. Let's say you have SUCH strong read on this guy - despite him being a $10nl player with imbalanced stats - that you think a big bet means a monster, say 50% of the time. Well, that means that rather than being ahead 80% of the time, you're only ahead 40% of the time.

But guess what! Even if, with your own monster hand (and second set IS a monster, believe me) you are only 40% to win - you are still egtting odds to call! You are being asked to put $5 into a $8.75 pot. Therefore, you only need to be ahead 36% of the time for this to be call.

So, even in the worst case scenario - one in which you have superhuman reads - it is -EV to fold here. THAT'S why people are telling you this hand cost you money - because although you got lucky here, if you play the hand 1000 times over, you'll lose a significant amount of money despite holding a monster.

(epilogue - one sure way to become a bad/losing poker player is to look at positive results to bad mistakes and think "because it worked out that time, I must have played it right". This is the perfect example of such thinking. You MUST lose this attitude or you will end up either going broke or, at best, being unable to progress beyond the lowest levels.)

Oh and one further thought. His check on the turn COULD mean he wants to check raise or trap you - but it might also mean he has a marginal hand - AT, say - a drawing hand, or nothing at all, and he doesn't want to put any more money in. I'm sorry, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have a strong read here that this check means the nuts, though you are, of course, right to consider it as one of many options.

Wow, I never thought someone would go thru the trouble of typing all that out. But yea, what Biondino said.

Sorry to bang on! Let's say that the guy had turned over AK - a perfectly reasonable hand to value bet on the river, seeing as there's no flush, middling chance of a straight, and no paired cards. How would you have felt then? Would you still be asking "good fold"? Because if not, then you are admitting that you've been results oriented.

Apologies - you also beat KK on the flop, where you have the 2nd nuts, not 3rd nuts. This makes little difference to my argument.

DERUY is not 34/12.

Look back on it and tell us what "read" led you to think you were behind. Since there were virtually no bets you must have an electronic tell. (Most of us make our reads via evaluating the action and using our experience to narrow the range of our opponents hands). If you had an electronic tell (say the way the alarm beeped to warn you time bank would be activated was a couple of decibels higher than normal) then lay it down by all means.

Biondino - I agree on everything you said but the huge bet he made on the river just seemed extremely odd when he knew there were multiple straight draws out there as well. I was able to clean him out in the next 1/2 hr but I folded this hand to wait for a more guaranteed win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Biondino - I agree on everything you said but the huge bet he made on the river just seemed extremely odd when he knew there were multiple straight draws out there as well. I was able to clean him out in the next 1/2 hr but I folded this hand to wait for a more guaranteed win.

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you would have won this hand more than likely if you played this right. and some more being results oriented by saying "o i cleaned him out anyways"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

DERUY is not 34/12.

Look back on it and tell us what "read" led you to think you were behind. Since there were virtually no bets you must have an electronic tell. (Most of us make our reads via evaluating the action and using our experience to narrow the range of our opponents hands). If you had an electronic tell (say the way the alarm beeped to warn you time bank would be activated was a couple of decibels higher than normal) then lay it down by all means.

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I don't have 5K hands on him like you Gingerwizard but I have like 2K hands on him and have paid attention to his betting patterns. He likes to cbet alot as well as bet pot on a flop when on a draw and check raise when he makes it on the turn. He also doesn't bet real big on a 2pr hand into a small pot. Considering how he bet pot and 1/2 on river it was obvious to me.

I know we are beating a dead horse here. There is nothing that we will say that makes you understand that how you played this was wrong. You keep talking about the huge overbet on the river as your tell, but you misplayed the hand so horribly that this overbet could have been anything. The only eveidence you have that you played it right is the results, which came by phantom Email from a guy you claim to be a 34/12 and you know so well. The fact remains, you played the hand wrong, you justify it by the result and this will lead to you playing poorly for a long time. Just because you are running good( and that's what it is) you will never maintain that winrate and you will lose more than you win by playing by these "reads" at $10NL and $25NL and $50NL and $100NL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Biondino - I agree on everything you said but the huge bet he made on the river just seemed extremely odd when he knew there were multiple straight draws out there as well. I was able to clean him out in the next 1/2 hr but I folded this hand to wait for a more guaranteed win.

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you would have won this hand more than likely if you played this right. and some more being results oriented by saying "o i cleaned him out anyways"

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The only thing I would have considered doing differently is re-raising him more on the flop. Turn I would have checked because he could have been opened ended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I know we are beating a dead horse here. There is nothing that we will say that makes you understand that how you played this was wrong. You keep talking about the huge overbet on the river as your tell, but you misplayed the hand so horribly that this overbet could have been anything. The only eveidence you have that you played it right is the results, which came by phantom Email from a guy you claim to be a 34/12 and you know so well. The fact remains, you played the hand wrong, you justify it by the result and this will lead to you playing poorly for a long time. Just because you are running good( and that's what it is) you will never maintain that winrate and you will lose more than you win by playing by these "reads" at $10NL and $25NL and $50NL and $100NL

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Trainer: I've told you I typically don't play it like this but I was trying to trap him in this instance. I thought his hand was weak and was trying to get the most out of his as possible and didn't want to scare him out. Don't we have to change our betting lines once in a while to confuse our opponents?

At $10NL? Nope. Why did you post this hand? What are you waiting to hear? lets look at this again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

His bet was too big on river to justify a call I think.............

POKERSTARS GAME #10295241521: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/06/06 - 01:05:12 (ET)
Table 'Charon IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DERUY ($10.10 in chips)
Seat 2: KAAAA ($7.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Pythonic ($26.95 in chips)
Seat 4: Harrylux ($14 in chips)
Seat 7: AnarchyKid24 ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 8: angelique924 ($9.80 in chips)
Seat 9: pr1me_time1 ($19.65 in chips)
AnarchyKid24: posts small blind $0.05
angelique924: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pythonic [Jd Jh]
pr1me_time1: folds
DERUY: raises $0.30 to $0.40
KAAAA: folds
Pythonic: calls $0.40
Harrylux: folds
AnarchyKid24: folds
angelique924: folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 7s Jc]
DERUY: bets $0.70
Pythonic: raises $0.70 to $1.40
DERUY: calls $0.70
*** TURN *** [Td 7s Jc] [Kh]
DERUY: checks
Pythonic: checks
*** RIVER *** [Td 7s Jc Kh] [4h]
DERUY: bets $5
Pythonic said, "AQ or KK?"
Pythonic said, "laying down JJJ, nh"
Pythonic: folds
DERUY collected $3.60 from pot
DERUY: doesn't show hand

---

This is what was posted and these are the answers your going to get. You played it wrong, you are being results oriented and you have been shown why folding the river was bad, even if you put him squarely on AQ. You had odds to call, you keep talking about the river bet, but checked behind On the turn and you keep talking about he check raises turns when he completes. What does he do when he doesn't? What does he do with TPTK on that turn, What does he do with 77 on that turn and river. Your belief in what he had is scewing the fact that you posted a hand, asked a question about the play, and have done nothing but defend it. From now on post it in the tales of poker section and don't ask.

Dude seriously i never come around to this forum but stop arguing, OP this hand is played horribly.

Qucik fixes:
1. Don't minraise ever, make healthy sized 3x raises at least.
2. Try to get it in when you have a set, only slowplay on rare RARE occasions.
3. Never fold a set, unless its overwheling circumstances.(4 to flush on board, 4 to straight on board, 3 to flush on board)
4. Reraise at least JJ+, AK.


Long Term Fixes:
1. Experiment with bet sizing more. Think about which bet sizes fit for what textures and situations.
2. Learn to widen your thinking for what hands your opponent may have. Don't get stuck repeating the same cards in your head. You don't even have to remember ones that are beating you, most of the time where you can think of 2+ hands that are beating you you should probably call.

:doh:

Thanks all for your help. I will continue to play it the way I mainly do (this was just a special instance)

A further thought. You say this guy check raises the nuts on the turn. Okay, that's a potentially useful read. Does he check raise, say, a set? Two pair? TPTK? Does he check raise as a bluff?

Let's assume your read is so good that the ONLY hand he check raises on the turn is the nuts. The problem we have here is: you checked behind! He didn't check raise you! So your read is worthless - there is no doubt at all that a huge number of hands he could be holding here check the turn BECAUSE THEY'RE WEAK. But because you didn't bet, you'll never know. So you are obliged to downgrade your "omg he was going to check raise me, I can fold second set" read to "hmm, I know he checks when he has the nuts but he'd also check here with a missed draw, air, 2nd pair, or any hand requiring pot control".

As for the river, well. You're going to find poker a real struggle if you fold monster hands to overbets every time, especially after you show weakness like you do here on the turn.

this would be a NH if it was NL Omaha High.

But it's not.

So this was a bad fold. You induced a bluff, so you have to call.

im just baffled why you even posted the hand up in this part of the forum.

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Thanks all for your help. I will continue to play it the way I mainly do (this was just a special instance)

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This concerns me.

I don't really need to hear your reply, that's not important.
I know i was a bad player when I was at 25nl, and I know even at 200nl I have a lot to learn. I'd be glad to review a 100 HH's for you to see if your game is really innovative and good but before that im going to assume you're not very good and have a lot to learn. So please start trying to take advice from this forum. Acting like mistakes you make are just "special instances" is refusing to blame yourself, and you have to at least look at blaming yourself on every hand.

Iowa,

I take other people's advise here very seriously and I agree I have a lot to learn, probably forever like everyone else.
All hands cannot be played with the same lines though because conditions and player skills are different. I fully understand the concept of betting for information to help put people on hands.

Both of these special instances I am talking about were correct laydowns to bigger hands. I have proof that folding was right on both. Are we not supposed to go by reads anymore and just push cash around all over the place? There is not more I can say on this issue, I knew what Villian had and that's that. Should I have raised more on the flop to make him fold yes prob but if he calls in this instance then I lose a lot more. I was trying to slowplay trap him (reason for miniraise) and luckily was able to identify his straight on turn before losing any more money. It was a rare occurence to identify his hand and I understand it. I just wanted to know if anyone else would fold in that situation and that's it. Has nothing to do with being cocky or any of that.

We all have a lot to learn when it comes to poker, but you keep defending your laydown when all we are trying to say is that it is unrealistic to think that you can put villian on a hand range small enough to make that fold especially with the action and texture of the hand. Biondino even went into great length in a very useful post explaining why you will lose money in the long run by laying thetse hands down. Nobody is recommending that you play every hand the same either so don't pretend like they are. You posted this hand in a fashion that looks like you wanted a pat on the back..... If you were really only wondering if others would make this laydown I think the consensus would be no especially against a 34/12.

od

Who said the full ring forum was dead? Anyway, nice fold dude, and let me be the first to say:


http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6079/jfish8bt.jpg



...

also there really shouldnt be any reason to trap someone at 10nl.

your whole plan there should just be make hands, extract.

lmfao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by overdraft

We all have a lot to learn when it comes to poker, but you keep defending your laydown when all we are trying to say is that it is unrealistic to think that you can put villian on a hand range small enough to make that fold especially with the action and texture of the hand. Biondino even went into great length in a very useful post explaining why you will lose money in the long run by laying thetse hands down. Nobody is recommending that you play every hand the same either so don't pretend like they are. You posted this hand in a fashion that looks like you wanted a pat on the back..... If you were really only wondering if others would make this laydown I think the consensus would be no especially against a 34/12.

od

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If villian bets less on river I instacall, but raise was too ackward IMO. I know how he bets and this was just out of control for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythonic

Quote:

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well if your going to look at it that way (wrong way...) you would have saved more money by playing the previous streets right.

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And if villian has KK or 7/8 how does that save me money?

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Villian has KK, you reraise the flop, he pushes, you call, your pot equity rules.
Villian has AQ, you reraise the flop, he folds, you at least win the pot.
Villian has KQ/AK for two overs and up and down, or two overs, you reraise the flop, he folds or calls, and you're either going to get a check/fold or a lead-call on your reraise on the turn. Again, your pot equity rules.
If Villian has 7/8 he's drawing dead on the turn :P

All the advice you've received in this post about this hand being played badly is 100% accurate. The only time it's correct to slowplay a set on a drawy board like this is if the Villian is totally aggro and is likely to pot the turn with an open ender and overcards if he misses. Why the hell would you want to give him odds on the flop to draw if he's up and down, or how about giving an overpair the oppurtunity to hit a two out set on the turn (since his openning bet is already in the pot, your flat call is giving him a free card). TT or 77 to hit a 1 outter for quads. Giving free cards by calling when you hit top set is universally stupid. You might have made a great laydown given the circumstances when you were asked to call that $5 on the river, but the point is if you had played the hand properly you would've either won a small pot right away, won a huge pot, or lost a huge pot when you got a good chunk of your stack in with great equity. If you 3bet preflop you make villian define his hand, if he folds you take it down right there (this is a great play with JJ, as you are almost always behind if Villian shoves and has a PFR% of < 8%, Side Question to the populus: How high does Villian's PFR% have to be in order for calling a shove over your 3bet to be +EV??). Either way poor play in this hand DEFINITELY cost you money, it's inarguable. Sometimes it's better to increase your chances of winning by decreasing your chances of losing. It is almost always 100% incorrect to sacrifice favorable betting oppurtunities to try to make more money on later streets. Becuase while you might be increasing the total amount you'll win if you do (through deception), you're drastically increasing the liklihood that you'll lose the pot. All in all, you gave the guy 2 free cards after you flopped top set. Weak play, period. Don't play scared.

I can see him folding a FH "knowing" villain has the quads ;-)

Just stop slowplaying or playing scared. That's the advice all the best players here gave me, and it improved my game a lot. Bet your big hands, villain will either have a hand or he won't and you're building a pot. If something unlikely like a straight happens, oh well. Looking at my PP in poker tracker it's almost all wins for big money, with occasional loses to straights and very occasionally a flush. Since most of the time we're good here, we lose money by folding in the long term. Check this FTR article out: http://www.flopturnriver.com/Biggest...ret-Poker.html

so bad

Overflow,

I play 99.7% of my sets just like you said with the exception of two. Played this one poorly but got lucky that I didn't pay out big because of my slowplay mistake. Thankfully he bet to big on the river which helped me make my read. Nothing else to say about this post.