JQ dilema

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06-09-2007, 09:27 PM
nooby

JQ dilema

This was a multi table tournament here,not that it should matter much with stack sizes involved, right?. The table was tight, and I hadnt been in many hands so I felt that I could maybe make a steal or a great hand by showdown. Should I have folded this hand , yes or no and WHY?BB just got moved to table about 4 hands ago and hasnt played a hand yet. MP2 is super tight. I want to know if I should have checked or bet turn and WHY. I know you guys are goin to say if I was goin to bet flop I should have bet more,but I felt that the players I was up agaisnt, I was either way behind or way ahead (that they were not playing drawing hands) and that a half pot bet woulda did the job...I was wrong with 2 cold calls

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t50/t100
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
hero: t5335
UTG+1: t4455
MP1: t2080
MP2: t6275
CO: t3875
Button: t2315
SB: t2795
BB: t3938

Pre-flop: (8 players) hero is UTG with :qc :js
hero raises to t350, 2 folds, MP2 calls t350 (pot was t500), 3 folds, BB calls t250 (pot was t850).

Flop: :6d :qd :8s (t1100, 3 players)
BB checks, hero bets t550, MP2 calls t550 (pot was t1650), BB calls t550 (pot was t2200).

Turn: :9c (t2750, 3 players)
BB checks.
hero ???.
06-09-2007, 10:25 PM
Penfold

fold pf because QJ utg sucks
06-09-2007, 10:35 PM
nooby

Ok, but please explain to me why it "sux".
06-09-2007, 11:04 PM
Penfold

you have no info on what the other players have, and QJ is an easily dominated hand. would you call a raise with QJ? if you wouldnt call a raise with it then you shouldnt raise it in ep. youre behind anything that calls you, and youre probably going to be oop. you get yourself in to tricky spots like the one youre in.
06-09-2007, 11:48 PM
nooby

"you have no info on what the other players have " Im not exactly sure what that means, but Im goin to guess and say that what you meant is that, is that im clueless about what the other players have left to act behind me. If that is what you mean, what if I tell you that even if everyone folds to me on the button, im still clueless as to what the blinds have. And if thats not even what you meant by the above quote, please correct me on what you meant. Also, "QJ is an easily dominated hand. would you call a raise with QJ?" Up against the right player with implied odds, yes I would. Is this bad, and if so WHY? Overall, in the hand JQ that I played, I want to re-add that the only reason I raised it was to steal due to the tight table and my semi-tight image myself, can u explain some more in depth WHY that is bad. Thank You for taking the time to reply to my questions and explain what things im sure are very simple knowledge to u and others.
06-10-2007, 11:11 AM
Ash256

If you want to know why QJ sucks in EP, just look at your post above.. you hit the top pair you wanted, yet by the turn you have no clue where you're at, what the other guys have got, and what to do. Not only that, but your options seem to be give up and fold what is potentially the best hand if someone else bets, or bet it yourself and potfuck yourself with a crap hand.
06-10-2007, 02:51 PM
PapalRage

Quote:

what if I tell you that even if everyone folds to me on the button, im still clueless as to what the blinds have.

Yes you are clueless to what the blinds have, but with only two players left to act there is a far lower chance that someone else will have a good enough hand to call or reraise you. Furthermore, if they do play a pot with you, you will always have position on them.
06-10-2007, 08:06 PM
nooby

'If you want to know why QJ sucks in EP, just look at your post above.. you hit the top pair you wanted, yet by the turn you have no clue where you're at, what the other guys have got, and what to do."

Your right, I dont know where im at in the hand on the turn, Se please explain to me how I can figure out what they have so I can figure out where I am in this hand. Also lets pretend I am in last position in this same hand, now try and give me and example on how I would know more about where I am in this hand.
06-10-2007, 10:13 PM
apunisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by nooby

'If you want to know why QJ sucks in EP, just look at your post above.. you hit the top pair you wanted, yet by the turn you have no clue where you're at, what the other guys have got, and what to do."

Your right, I dont know where im at in the hand on the turn, Se please explain to me how I can figure out what they have so I can figure out where I am in this hand. Also lets pretend I am in last position in this same hand, now try and give me and example on how I would know more about where I am in this hand.

YOu cant just magically "figure out what they have" Its impossible to pin each of your opponents on an exact hand. All you can do is put them on a range. Im sure theres a combination of flush draws, straight draws, higher top pairs, maybe even hands like a pair and a draw (like 78).

Ip, this hand plays soooooo much easier. Lets say you bet flop and they both ch/call. Then you check behind turn and reevaluate. If a third diamond hits and one player leads out, you can confidently fold. If you spike a ten, you can bet because you have more confidence in your hand.

Your hand is pretty much the worst hand that you should be even thinking about betting for value in this hand because you can so easisly just get called down by better, almost turning ur hand into a bluff. Just top pair here will hardly ever be worth more than two streets of value, and even then this may be pushing it.

FOld preflop, as has been said earlier, and dont get urself in these situations oop.

Also, i noticed earlier you talking about implied odds with QJo. This is generally not a hand that holds implied odds. More like reverse implied odds.