QQ rr'ed, one caller - pre-flop decision

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06-20-2007, 02:00 PM
zook

QQ rr'ed, one caller - pre-flop decision

3-bettor is 20/15/6 and has 3-bet me twice at this table, I've folded both times. UTG is a bad loose passive, 37/3/2, and probably could have a wide range here.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $411.20
UTG+1: $1479.80
CO: $201.50
Hero: $715.30
SB: $396
BB: $187

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with Q :heart: Q :spade:
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Hero raises to $24, SB raises to $72, BB folds, UTG calls, CO folds, Hero...
06-20-2007, 02:12 PM
griffey24

I think you should just call.

I had the exact same hand last night, except I was in the SB with AA and I re-raised the BTN who had QQ. He 4-bet preflop, and I flat called. Flop came all unders, and I check bombed the flop and he was committed to call.

If you're deciding between calling and raising, definitey call. I don't see many worse hands than yours calling if you 4-bet.

If you're deciding between calling and folding, I still think call, because his re-raising range against your button raise is so wide.
06-20-2007, 02:16 PM
mcatdog

gotta shove here, the point of calling if it was heads-up would be to pick off his c-bet on the flop but that won't happen since the fish is in the pot.
06-20-2007, 02:25 PM
minSim

UTG is really bad limp-overcalling so I'd be glad he's in the hand as a pot sweetener. SB seems decent so could be on a steal. It's really just a button raise, SB reraise so I'm never folding. As we're in position I'd call, folding to any reasonable bet on a A high flop? What about a K high flop?

Is a preflop push good when only JJ+, AK call?
06-20-2007, 02:36 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Is a preflop push good when only JJ+, AK call?

Even if better hands don't call, you still have to protect your hand IMO. Calling seems pointless when the SB won't be betting worse hands on the flop anyway, due to the presence of the fish, but you'll still be paying him off on a rag flop when he has you beat.

Also, while the SB won't call your push with a worse hand, the fish might call off his stack with 66.
06-20-2007, 02:55 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

gotta shove here, the point of calling if it was heads-up would be to pick off his c-bet on the flop but that won't happen since the fish is in the pot.

Sorry, misread the OP. Didn't notice you had another EP caller.

Doesn't shoving just blow the fish out of the pot? I guess shoving would be good to just end the pot right here, but I think it folds out worse hands and gets called by SB if he has a better hand.
06-20-2007, 03:10 PM
ilikeaces86

Looks like a shove.
06-20-2007, 04:12 PM
bode

Button vs SB with a fish in the pot = shove
06-20-2007, 05:36 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Doesn't shoving just blow the fish out of the pot?I guess shoving would be good to just end the pot right here, but I think it folds out worse hands and gets called by SB if he has a better hand.

Not ncessarily, I've seen fish call off their stacks with a crappy hand here more times than I can count. In order for calling to be better, you're counting on all of these things being true.

-fish has a hand that he would have folded to a pre-flop shove
-fish makes a hand on the flop that he likes but is still worse than QQ
-fish doesn't suck out you with that hand
-SB doesn't out-flop you with a worse hand

I think the probability of all four of those things being true is like 15% or less. The fact that a pre-flop shove gets called by better hands is irrelevant if we're pretty much stacking off to those same hands post-flop anyway.
06-20-2007, 05:54 PM
zook

Nice posts mcat.

I thought a long time and called. Flop came K:c:4:c:3:h:, SB c-bet for ~1/2 pot, UTG folded, I briefly thought about floating but figured SB would have to have big balls to c-bet with AQ/JJ or worse here.

What do we do here with:

1. AA?
2. AKo?
3. TT?
06-20-2007, 06:44 PM
NLHE lahooozaher

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Doesn't shoving just blow the fish out of the pot? I guess shoving would be good to just end the pot right here, but I think it folds out worse hands and gets called by SB if he has a better hand.

I don't understand the last part. If sb has a better hand isn't OP paying him off anyways? I don't think we can fold QQ on the flop if the fish folds. Or is the thinking that the sb will have trouble betting into the fish and the OP? The only advantage I see is that when you're up against AK you're going to lower your variance by seeing the flop first which IMO is a bad way of looking at things.
06-21-2007, 01:17 AM
benny999

ive been called by seemingly good tags who had 88 and 77 in this sort of spot when i went all in pre flop over their squeeze.

so ya i think shoving is good, because of that and what mcatdog said.
06-21-2007, 01:24 AM
benny999

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Nice posts mcat.

I thought a long time and called. Flop came K:c:4:c:3:h:, SB c-bet for ~1/2 pot, UTG folded, I briefly thought about floating but figured SB would have to have big balls to c-bet with AQ/JJ or worse here.

What do we do here with:

1. AA?
2. AKo?
3. TT?

with 1 and 2 i like mixing it up - shove, min raise, or call.
with 3 i'd just fold...not sure though, maybe raise small as a bluff? i guess not if he never has JJ/QQ...