Getting 3-bet.. causing me problems.. general post

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07-06-2007, 11:12 AM
griffey24

Getting 3-bet.. causing me problems.. general post

Hey guys,

Well I've recently made a few attempts at moving up to 400NL, and I've had some serious problems dealing with the frequency of 3-betting at 400NL.

From CO/BTN:

I run at approximately 30/25ish, raising pretty light from CO/BTN (most aces, most suited connectors, all pairs/broadway cards) especially if its folded around to me.

-then I get 3-bet from someone in the blinds, and I often find myself calling moderate hands simply because I have position. I also usually miss the flop in these hands and fold, or try floating only to meet a double barrel.
-Should I just be folding weak holdings PF to 3-bets, and call when I actually have something legitimate?

From EP:

-I raise EP/MP all pairs, and get re-raised such that I'm OOP the rest of the hand
-should I fold these pairs since I'm not getting set odds? Should I 4-bet once in a while with low/mid pairs or is that just spew? Check push rag flops since he likely missed with overs (though, this push will mostly only get called when I'm beat anyhow)

I know these are general questions, and it all 'depends' on who's raising etc. I'm talking about a player running at like 25/22 or something, who is three-betting often.

Its driving me crazy! thanks, and sorry if this is way to broad of a post

Griffey24
07-06-2007, 11:30 AM
Alexos

Dude if its anonpg1 just start pushing a lot of hands like AQ+, TT+ from button after he 3bets.

From what you say it seems like your problem is calling too much and not 4betting enough.

BTW, if you want to check push rag flops, you should do it with overs..i.e. on a 249 flop, do this with broadway cards instead of a pair of fives or Ace-rag because his calling range here is mostly any pair.
07-06-2007, 11:40 AM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Dude if its anonpg1 just start pushing a lot of hands like AQ+, TT+ from button after he 3bets.

From what you say it seems like your problem is calling too much and not 4betting enough.

BTW, if you want to check push rag flops, you should do it with overs..i.e. on a 249 flop, do this with broadway cards instead of a pair of fives or Ace-rag because his calling range here is mostly any pair.

No.. its not just anonpg1, I was getting 3-bet a lot at 200NL yesterday too with problems.

Thats a good suggestion though, about pushing rag flops wtih overs instead of with low pairs.

As for the 4-betting, should I widen my 4-betting range against loose 3-bettors, or should I still keep my 4-betting range solid (QQ+,AQs+).

I started 4-betting to $75 after being re-raised to like $25 at 200NL, but quickly realized that if I do this light and get pushed over and am forced to fold, I have to succeed 3/4 times to make this breakeven, which isn't too great.

ie: I raise AJ on button, blinds re-raise to 25, I 4-bet to 75 and they pushover. I am clearly behind here... am I committed to call off $125 more? ..
07-06-2007, 02:55 PM
zook

A few thoughts...

- I mainly fold to 3-bets. This is important. It's really easy to get caught up in pre-flop pissing contests at 2/4, but in my mind, that just decreases your edge (which should be post-flop) and increases your variance.

- If I'm sure someone is 3-betting me light (b/c they've been 3-betting me a lot or I've seen them showdown) then I open up my 4-betting range oop and my calling range in position.

- When choosing hands to 4-bet with, I pick ones that have good equity against a normal 5-bet pushing range (QQ+/AK), because you're almost always going to be priced in to call a push 100bb deep. I posted some thoughts about 4-betting in two posts here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=516971#516971

- Bluffing/floating flops in 3-bet pots can be profitable, but should be used sparingly. Pot odds will compel villains to call lighter than you expect. Reads are helpful... do they c-bet 100% of flops after 3-betting? Do they c/c A-high flops with an underpair? All low card flops are good to bluff since missed overs are the majority of a light 3-bettors range.
07-06-2007, 03:05 PM
IowaSkinsFan

I rarely ever make light calls to threebets, but when I do I bluff a shitload, because most of the time a c/p or a push will have them put you on AA.

Although if you're going to call light, I choose spots with high cards like KJ/QJ/JT, stuff like that so you can felt some pairs.
07-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Alexos

yeah, if you 4bet you should be prepared to call a push like always, its major spew if u 4bet with the intention of folding to a push.

And like Zook said you shouldnt call 3bets if u have no plan in mind..dont call just to hope to hit big. Unless you know he has QQ+, you shouldn't even call w/ small pairs and hope to hit a set. Try to fold/4bet instead of calling.
07-07-2007, 01:49 PM
griffey24

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies. Ok I think my really big problem has been callng 3-bets light, and four-betting too light with hands that I wasn't ready to felt, just to make a stand.

I'll definitely try tightening up and picking my spots better.
07-07-2007, 03:49 PM
sauce123

4betting/folding when you are getting 2 to 1 or better is probably a huge leak. 4 bet bluffing in the wrong spots may be a huge leak (i think 4bet bluffing should be used really really sparingly if at all with 100 BB stacks until you get to 1knl or higher and even then it should be used little).

calling 3bets OOP is generally a huge leak at just about any stakes.

calling 3bets in position is a necesary balance to ur strategy- the problem being that its also one of the most difficult spots to play in poker. Probably your best bet for the time being with such a LAG style is to call AA KK QQ JJ in position about 75% of the time until the regs realize that double barreling you every hand on dryish boards isnt profitable.
07-07-2007, 04:54 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

4betting/folding when you are getting 2 to 1 or better is probably a huge leak. 4 bet bluffing in the wrong spots may be a huge leak (i think 4bet bluffing should be used really really sparingly if at all with 100 BB stacks until you get to 1knl or higher and even then it should be used little).

calling 3bets OOP is generally a huge leak at just about any stakes.

calling 3bets in position is a necesary balance to ur strategy- the problem being that its also one of the most difficult spots to play in poker. Probably your best bet for the time being with such a LAG style is to call AA KK QQ JJ in position about 75% of the time until the regs realize that double barreling you every hand on dryish boards isnt profitable.

Yah this all definitely makes sense. I think I started calling light, and four betting light, was because I felt if I kept folding it was as though I was letting all the aggro players run me over.

but now I'm realizing that by calling them, I was spewing, and letting them run me over even more.
07-07-2007, 06:15 PM
Fnord

I've been spewing a little in these spots just to see how people are playing them post-flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($127.65)
BB ($94.85)
UTG ($173.95)
MP ($95.45)
Fnord ($133.45)
Button ($100)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
2 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, SB raises to $5, 1 fold, Fnord calls $2.

Flop: ($11) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $5, Fnord calls $5.

Turn: ($21) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $5, Fnord raises to $20, SB calls $15.

River: ($61) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $40, SB folds.

Final Pot: $101

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($395.90)
BB ($224.60)
UTG ($104.65)
Fnord ($93.50)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Fnord calls $7.

Flop: ($20.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $12, Fnord calls $12.

Turn: ($44.50) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $30, BB calls $30.

River: ($104.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $41.5 (All-In), BB folds.

Final Pot: $146

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($93)
Fnord ($107.90)
MP ($139.75)
CO ($21.65)
Button ($157.95)
SB ($127.50)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Fnord raises to $3, MP raises to $9, 4 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($19.50) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Fnord checks, MP bets $15, Fnord calls $15.

Turn: ($49.50) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Fnord checks, MP checks.

River: ($49.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Fnord bets $30, MP folds.

Final Pot: $79.50

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Fnord ($156.10)
Button ($97)
SB ($152.80)
BB ($100)
UTG ($98.50)
MP ($134.70)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, SB raises to $12, 1 fold, Fnord calls $9.

Flop: ($25) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $18, Fnord calls $18.

Turn: ($61) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $40, SB folds.

Final Pot: $101

All and all probably not worth it as there were a couple hands I took too far or showed down 2nd best for too much money. Learned a whole lot though.
07-08-2007, 06:39 AM
minSim

Fnord, I see you never raises flops on these hands with your flush / OES draws. Could you comment on why you didn't?
(especially hand 3)

And hand 1: did you only continue because of his betsizes?

In general; is it a good idea to call 3-bets with SC's? As far as I know you flop a hand to continue with about 25%, but you're not winning all of those hands. I keep the 15x rule for them, same as sets, but hell I'm even having trouble winning 40+BB with my sets.

More general; I think my preflop play and flop play are on a good level now. Turn and river play are a completely different story though and that keeps me from playing more speculative hands. Any ideas how I can improve on that?